Possibly moving my membership, but not a horizontal move,

God dwells outside the realm of time and so has the ability to see who would respond to Christ through the power and influence of the gospel. This is how God chose his own before the foundation of the world.

 

When I was a young man I fretted about these things.

I have two verses that worked for me to quiet those frets.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Genesis 18:25 ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

HankD

 

quote:

Because God does dwell outside of time, isn't it true that those who do not believe are condemned already?


John 3:18 tells us that men are condemned because they don't believe in "the name of the only begotten Son of God." God dwelling outside of time(and I believe He does) doesn't come into the matter.

Now back to the matter of God choosing us or us choosing Him.

Same chapter in John also compares the raising up of the Son of Man to Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness.

Now if I remember the story correctly the children of Isreal were doing thier usual complaining, whining thing when God got tired of it and punished them by sending poisoness snakes among them. Finally when the people repented he gave Moses a plan to save their earthly lives. Told Moses to make a snake and hold it up high where ALL WHO WANTED to could see it. Now notice their was a choice here. They had to look at it. IF they didn't they died.

John 3:16 says God loved the world. I believe that means he loved the whole world, not just a few folks that He picked out of the crowd. But he wanted to give them a choice just as he gave Adam and Eve a choice back in the beginning. So Christ on the cross took all our sins, potentially the sins of every person in the world. The choice however remains with the individual. We must choose whether or not accept the gift God offers to us.

Tell me where you think I am wrong and why.

Why would Christ have had to die if only a certain number of us were to be saved?

 

Bro Dallas:

I'm sure you weren't looking for a debate on this. I'll be praying that you will be obedient to the Lord's Will in your life, wherever that may be.

David

 

Umm, I don't really want to be debating here either. I'm really just asking questions which I hope will help with my own spiritual growth.

As far as what church one attends, my belief is to find a church whose beliefs most closely match your own. If there are differences, can you live with them? Will your witness suffer because of them? Will your differences cause someone to stumble? Is the Lord leading you to change?

I also don't think we will get every answer to every question. HankD's post above is probably the best answer we'll get to some of our questions. If more of us rested on those scriptures we probably wouldn't have so many different Baptist denominations.

 

the teaching of limited atonement overlooks and invalidates pauls conclusion in romans chapter 11
in paralleling Gods plans of salvation.


Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
(vessels of mercy)

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(vessels of wrath)

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(vessels of mercy AND vessels of wrath)

doesnt the teachings of limited atonement overlooks these conclusions of rom 11:30-32.?
allowing the vessels of wrath to remain eternally lost from their creator?..

a slippery slope indeed.

 

Bro Dallas

Your statement- "I believe the elect are sanctified through the Spirit to the belief of the truth. I do not believe any person will come to Christ simply by hearing the Gospel preached. What is it that makes the power in the preached gospel effectual for me and you and not for another non believer?"

Answer-You see you already err Bro Dallas. For it is IN the power of the gospel that sinners come to Christ.Rom 1:16. The gospel of Christ does not come just in words only, but in the power of the Holy Spirit. I Thess 1:5. No one is saved APART from the gospel.

You ask what makes the power of the gospel more effectual for those who become Christians, than those who don't?

There is nothing lacking in God's word. Nor is there anything lacking in the power of the Holy Spirit. BOTH the word of God and the Holy Spirit say Come and drink FREELY. Whosoever WILL may come" Rev 22:17

So neither God's word or God the Holy Spirit is lacking, but the problem lies in man's rebellious HEART. He is not WILLING to come. John 5:40. You came to Christ because God's Spirit convicted you and you said "I will". While the obstinate sinner who KNOWS he should come to God says, "I won't." A sinner who refuses to come to Christ CHOOSES to be rebellious. It's not that he is unable, for the word of God and the Holy Spirit has spoken to his heart. He simply refuses. And as I posted earlier, there are many reasons for that.

 

Bro Dallas

Your Questions-"There has to be more than God seeing in me and you that we would believe, or else God really is a respecter of persons, and his universal offer is not [although provided in the limits of time as the preaching of the gospel is bound by time] one of sincerity to the lost because God foresaw their rejection and the 'offer' is merely icing on the cake, right?

Because God does dwell outside of time, isn't it true that those who do not believe are condemned already?"
-------------------------------------------------

Answers

When it comes to WHO God will finally accept for salvation he is demanding. Acts 17:30 But he is no respecter of persons concerning men as sinners. ALL men are declared sinners by God and all sinners who are without Christ are under the wrath of God. So in that sense God is not a respecter of persons at all.What God saw in you and me was SIN and a hell bound sinner. You and I were both headed for the same hell.

But God didn't save us because of our faith but THROUGH our faith and WILLINGNESS to BELIEVE. God does not do the believing for you and repenting of your sins for you. YOU DO! God convicts you and God draws you, but he commands ALL men to REPENT and believe the gospel. There is no partiality. There is no where in scripture where God saves a man without a man believing the gospel and repenting. No where.

When the Jailer asked Paul "What must I DO to be saved". Paul didn't say, absolutely nothing, I can see you are drawn by the Holy Spirit now." No! Paul said "Believe ON the Lord Jesus Christ and thou will be saved." The jailer had to believe what he was convicted of.

The SAME for God's command to ALL men. God says sinners MUST REPENT.Acts 17:30.

Now in answer to your second question. Of course God in his foreknowledge knows who will be saved and who will be lost. But not because he determined it ARBITRARILY, but because God can see the future as if it were the present and thus decree it as already done.

 

Frogman,

the guaranteor resides in absolute time.

He has guaranteed that those chosen to be vessels of wrath eventually be given mercy (atonement).

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

the doctrine of limited atonement states that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross means "the atonement is sufficient for all, but efficient ONLY for the elect."

if We start to affirm that God has a saving love for all, that Christ died a saving death [sufficient] for all, and yet stop short from proclaiming universal atonement. there is nothing else we can say.

yet let it be clear what we proclaim.

We have not exalted grace and the cross. we have cheapened them.

We have LIMITED the atonement far more drastically than calvinism does.

Whereas calvinism asserts Christs death saves all whom it was meant to save. we have denied that Christs death is sufficient to save any more of them.

thus also affirming eternal punishment. eek!

Me2