Post Millenial Baptists

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Ben W, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. Ben W

    Ben W
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    For those Baptists that have the Post Millenial position, which are the main scriptures used to prove Post Mill?

    What was it that convinced you of Post-Millenialism?

    I am not looking to sledge the Post-Mill position, but rather to understand it in light of scripture.
     
  2. LadyEagle

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    I don't personally know and I have NEVER heard of ANY Baptist who believes in anything other than a pretribulation, premillenial rapture of the Church. Anyone who says they are Baptist and believes otherwise are not really Baptists. [​IMG]
     
  3. rlvaughn

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    Ben W, you might be hard pressed to find many postmillennial Baptists on the Baptist Board. IIRC, J. M. Pendleton, author of the Baptist Church Manual, An Old Landmark Reset and other books, was a postmillennialist (http://www.reformedreader.org/pendleton.htm). Hallmark Baptist Church in Simpsonville, SC takes the postmillennial position. http://www.hallmarkbaptist.com/golden.htm

    I think it is historically important to realize that the pretribulation, premillenial rapture of the Church belief is a relatively recent idea among Baptists (last 100 years). To require such belief to "be Baptist" would cut off most Baptists before the 20th century.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    John 5:28, 29 [KJV]
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Acts 24:15
    15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


    One Resurrection, one judgment. [​IMG]
     
  5. OldRegular

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    The Abstract of Principles for the first Seminary of the Southern Baptist Convention founded by James Petigru Boyce, John A. Broadus, and Basil Manly, Jr states in part:

    Article XIX. The Resurrection
    The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God - the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day the bodies of all the dead, both the just and the unjust, will be raised.


    Article XX. The Judgment
    God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds: the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.


    This Abstract of Principles is still in force at Southern Seminary. :D How far the Southern Baptists have strayed from these principles if Lady Eagle is correct? [​IMG]

    Pope Baptist's first decree: "Anyone who says they are Baptist and believes otherwise are not really Baptists." [​IMG]

    However, Thank God the Baptists have no pope notwithstanding Lady Eagle's attempt to anoint herself as such and her first decree is incorrect. :D
     
  6. KenH

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    Now, LadyEagle, I know that is not true. The first thing I did when I came on this board was to get into a debate with you over pretribulation premillennialism. [​IMG]
     
  7. LadyEagle

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    My assumption that ALL true Baptists MUST believe in a premillenial, pretribulation rapture is no different from those who say there is no such thing as a Bapticostal. Which is this Lady Pope's point. :D
     
  8. OldRegular

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    My assumption that ALL true Baptists MUST believe in a premillenial, pretribulation rapture is no different from those who say there is no such thing as a Bapticostal. Which is this Lady Pope's point. :D </font>[/QUOTE]Lady pope

    On the basis of historical Baptist beliefs I could make a better case that you are not a Baptist. It was not until the grevious error of Darbyism crept unawares into the Baptist churches through the Scofield Reference bible that belief in the pre-trib, pre-mill error became widespread in the Baptist churches. [​IMG]
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    Sorry to disappoint. But in the End Times, knowledge is increased and people run to and fro. Some of ya'll will still be clinging to your "historical" beliefs when the trumpet sounds. [​IMG]
     
  10. KenH

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    I have no doubt that you premills are wrong, LadyEagle. If you are going to shed a tear, do so not for me, but for yourself in believing in the false idea of premillennialism.
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    LadyEagle, since "End Times" are not mentioned in the Bible, do you mean "last days/times"? If so, do you mean other "last days/times" than the ones below:

    I John 2: 18Little children, it is the last time : and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time .

    Heb. 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    I Peter 1:20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    Dan.12
    [4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
     
  13. KenH

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    A particular eschatology is not a Baptist distinctive, at least it's not among we Southern Baptists. The Baptist Faith and Message does not favor one eschatological stance over another.
     
  14. rlvaughn

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    I know this line of questioning gets away from Ben's original intent, but, LadyEagle, I would like to ask two questions. In light of your posts, do you believe that persons not believing in the "pretribulation, premillenial rapture of the Church" before knowledge was increased in the end times could have been "real Baptists"? If so, about what year/decade/century did it become necessary to believe the "pretribulation, premillenial rapture of the Church" in order to be a real Baptist?
     
  15. OldRegular

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    The Trumpets and The Return of Jesus Christ

    There are several passages in the New Testament in which the sound of trumpets is associated with the second-coming and/or the resurrection. It is interesting to look at these passages and their possible relation to each other. A passage in 1 Corinthians 15, commonly assigned by the dispensationalists to the pretribulation rapture, reads as follows:

    1 Corinthians 15:50-53, KJV
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.


    Notice that in 1 Corinthians 15:52 the supposed pretribulation rapture is associated with the sound of the last trumpet. It is also significant that in this passage which dispensationalists assign to the pretribulation rapture Paul declares that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Given this statement Paul is obviously not talking about a post tribulation resurrection prior to the establishment of an earthly millennial kingdom, when the living believers enter the so-called earthly millennial kingdom, but the resurrection as described in John 5:28, 29 and the Kingdom of God in the New Heavens and Earth.

    The 24th Chapter of Matthew is sometimes referred to as the little apocalypse. In this chapter after the great tribulation has occurred the return of Jesus Christ is described as follows:

    Matthew 24:29-31, KJV
    29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    Notice again that the sound of a trumpet is associated with the return of Jesus Christ. The dispensationalist places this return after the rapture of the Church and after the great tribulation. Yet Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the sound of the last trumpet is associated with the resurrection of the Saints, which, according to the dispensationalist, occurs before the great tribulation.

    In the passage in 1 Thessalonians that dispensationalists also assert refers to the pretribulation rapture of the Church, the sound of a trumpet also is heard.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, KJV
    16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17. Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    If we reflect back to 1 Corinthians 15:52, the trump of God in the above passage is apparently the last trumpet since both passages point to the resurrection of the Saints.

    There is one additional passage of Scripture in which the sound of the last trumpet is associated with the return of Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
    15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


    The seventh angel sounded the last trumpet. Then The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. The passage goes on to say that the dead will be judged, the Saints will be rewarded, and those who destroy the earth will be destroyed. This passage is apparently referring to a general resurrection and judgment [Verse 18] following the last trumpet. Yet according to dispensationalism the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and the trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is associated only with the rapture of the Church. What does all this mean? It means that the dispensational-premillennial interpretation of the resurrection is incorrect. It means that there is one general resurrection and judgment which includes those who are dead in Jesus Christ and those who are dead in Adam.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Now I realize that the elitist Darbyites will say that the Last Trumpet of Paul is not the Last Trumpet of John's Revelation but it is they who continually assert that we must take Scripture at facevalue. If you want to see how seriously they take Scripture at face value listen to one try to explain Daniel 9:26, 27. :D
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    So you meant time of the end, not end times. However you didn't answer the question. Do those verses I mentioned refer to this "time of the end" of Daniel? If not what NT passages speak of the "time of the end" of Daniel? What is it the end of?
     
  17. Daniel David

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    Although I don't agree with Ladyeagles usage of that text, she is right about postmillers.

    You rarely see or hear of anyone anywhere who is postmill.

    Several little known historical events like World War I and II kind of deflated that hot air baloon.

    The world is getting better? Right.

    Postmillenialism was the result of bad hermenuetics, evangelistic fervor, and misplaced optimism.

    Now it is just an excuse for people to cover their opium addictions.
     
  18. go2church

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    As long as we are taking history, Darby and Scofield were not baptist. Darby was Brethren and Scofield was a Congregationalist. Not that you have to be baptist to say anything of theological value, just thought it would be a point of interest.
     
  19. KenH

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    Those who keep up with trends in eschatology are aware that there is a resurgence in the advocacy of postmillennialism taking place.
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Ken, I was talking about Christians.
     

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