Post-tribulation doctrine

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by church mouse guy, Dec 15, 2004.

  1. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy
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    The tribulation and the church is the subject of debate nowadays. The classic doctrine is post-tribulation rapture of the church. However, the essential doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus is coming to earth a second time--the question of when this happens is secondary.

    Jesus said in John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Hallelujah!

    Other Scripture that I will look at includes: Titus 2:13; Matthew 24:1-31 and 36-44; Daniel 9:24-26; Luke 21:24; Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15-16; II Thessalonians 2:1-12; I John 1:18; II Thessalonians 1:7-10; I Thessalonians 4:13-16; and Revelation 20:1-5.

    For purposes of this discussion, may we use 457 B.C. as the year in which the edict to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem was issued? And 70 A.D. for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    I grant you 457 B.C. as the year in which the edict to rebuild
    the wall of Jerusalem was issued and i grant you
    70 A.D. for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.
    However, you must grant me 1948AD as the year then New Israel
    came into world law and 0688AD as the year that the
    DOme of the Rock was dedicated to the moon god: Allah.

    BTW, which of the following two pre-mill theories do you
    intend to teach? Both are taught by various
    persons on this Baptist Board (BB).

    Postrib pre-mill outline:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- you are here
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    5. new heaven & new earth
     
  3. church mouse guy

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    Well, Ed, I believe in post-tribulation, pre-millennium rapture. However, I do not intend to discuss the millennium, as you can see from the Scripture listed above. OK?
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

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    Common for both pretribs & postribs agree on Dan. 9:24-25 speak of the prophecy on the coming of Messiah for Calvary, anbd rebuilt of Jerusalem. But, both disagree each other on Dan. 9:26-27. Both agree Messiah was 'cut off' of verse 26 speaks about killed or crucified after 69th week. Postribs/amil.postmil saying 'the people of prince' caused city to destroyed was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Some pretribs saying, it is not yet fulfilled, they saying, 'people of prince', prince is Antichrist, not CHrist. Pretribs saying, Antichrist shall cause Jersualem to be burn or destroy third temple during in seven year of tribulation period.

    Both pretribs & postribs have major disagree about Dan. 9:27. But, some posttribs agree with pretribs, Dan. 9:27 speaks of Antichrist shall sign peace treaty with Israel then will cause desolation in the middle of seven year of tribulation period.

    Pretrib teaches there is gap time between verse 26 and 27, the countdown clocks stopped at verse 26 after Christ was cut off. '70th Week' not yet begin till Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel, then start to countdown clock again.

    Dan. 9:26-27 does not stretch into 2,500 years or more.

    Some pretribs accuse at amill/postmill, saying there is gap time of 40 years between Calvary and the destruction of the temple -70 A.D.

    I understand Dan. 9:26 very clear, that Christ was cut off at Calvary, He allows that building of the temple to be destroyed(John 2:19). He actuals destroyed the building of the temple at Calvary, not 70 A.D.

    The context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus on one person 'Prince' speaks of Messiah. Not two persons - Messiah & Antichrist as what pretrib teaches.

    I understand 70 weeks of Dan. 9:24-27 is 490 years. Daniel, the prophet wrote while he was captivity in Babylon in year around 490 B.C. Daniel wrote, God already make determine for Jerusalem, there would be 490 years. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 prophecy about the coming of Messiah, salvation, the covenant, also to end daily sacrifices. Dan. 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary. Christ shouted and said, "It is finished" - John 19:30, at the same, the veil of the temple was tear down from top to bottom(Mark 15:37-38). He already end daily sacrifices, he ALREADY destroy that building of temple at Calvary (John 2:19). What's the more? Christ now bring new covenant unto all people, that the old covenant is no longer for us. Now, we are under the new covenant because of Christ's blood already forgive all our sins at once (Heb. 10:10).

    I understand Dan. 9:24-27 very clear focus on Jesus Christ, cross, salvation, covenant, and end daily sacrifice. Nothing in the context of Dan. 9:24-27 talking about Antichrist and so called, 'seven year of Tribulaiton period'.

    What about Matt. 24:15? Pretribs saying this verse refers to Dan. 9:27. Christ was right, there shall be abomination of desolation upon Jerusalem and the temple. It was fulfilled when Roman army invaded Jersualem in 70 A.D.

    Pretribs aware that the history telling us, the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed by Romans Army in 70 A.D. But, pretribs believe Matt 24:15 is still yet to come is future.

    Some saying, there is dual prophecy of Matt 24:15, partial fulfilled at 70 A.D., future event of Great Tribulation period.

    Matt. 24:15 & Dan. 9:27 both seem fit perfectly.

    Christ told his disciples, that building of temple will be destroyed - Matt. 24:2. He spoken of physical building of temple will be destroyed, already fulfilled in 70 A.D. Actually, Christ already destroyed temple at Calvary 40 years earlier prior 70 A.D. (John 2:19-21).

    Many Jews were stubborn still practical daily sacrifices after Christ's resurrection for the next 40 years. They were not understand Christ's new covenant, they were blind. Christ already end daily sacrifices at Calvary. He is our temple. Jews in Jerusalem were still blind, and reject Christ as their Messiah. That why they were continue daily sacrifices in the next 40 years. They could have continue sacrifices beyond 70 A.D. in Jerusalem, if they can, unless Romans Army not invade Jerusalem.

    Today, Jews still practical animal offerings, sacrifices. They still blind, and not believe Christ is their Messiah.

    Matt. 24:15 is partially of 70 A.D. as history already fulfilled, yet I believe it is future event for the coming great tribulation of Matt. 24:21.

    Dan. 9:26-27 is actually invloved with the event of 70 A.D. BECAUSE of Calvary. Christ told them, he will destroy temple (John 2:19), he already did it at Calvary 2,000 years ago.

    We do not have to wait for the coming 'week' or '70th Week', it already fulfilled at Calvary 2,000 years ago. There is no gap between Dan. 9:26-27. Dan. 9:26 tells us, Christ was cut off AFTER 69th week, that means, He was cut off during 70th week.

    Dan. 9:24-27 focus on Messiah, covenant, salvation, and end daily sacrifices, all of them already fulfilled 2,000 years ago. Why should we wait for the coming '70th Week' when Antichrist shall sign peace treaty with Israel? Dan. 9:24-27 already fulfilled 2,000 years ago, we know that.

    Later, we will continue discuss more on verses about timing of Christ's coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  5. LadyEagle

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    CMG dusted off his notes! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. church mouse guy

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    I finally found them in this book-strewn, paper-stacked cheap Indianapolis ghetto apartment, where the outside air is filled with pollution, gunshots, loud Mexican honky-tonk music, car horns at all hours, and never-ending blaring rap filth, LE. They were in a stack of DVDs, books, newspaper clippings, magazines, etc.
     
  7. prophecynut

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    My mommy used tell bed time stories about two mice Pipsweak and Rattletat that lived in our house, ever hear of them? Lived in Iowa at the time.
     
  8. church mouse guy

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    No, I am as poor as a church mouse. If I ever get any money, I will change my cyber pen-name. Actually, there is nothing I lack.
     
  9. church mouse guy

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    In John 14:3, Jesus said that He is returning to earth. That will be the Second Advent.

    Paul notes that fact in Titus 2:13.

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
     
  10. Phillip

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    Church Mouse Guy, I am just asking, not debating. Based on your mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is it your feeling that the tribulation occurred at that time?

    The reason I say this there is enough evidence in Math 24 to make a good case for it.

    1. Signs of close of the age could be referring to the beginning of the church age and ending of the law.

    2. Wrs and rumors of wars were taking place as various countries were struggling to make their place in history and Rome claiming to own the known world.

    3. Let the one who i on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house. 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak, 19 and alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infant in those days! 20 Pray that your flight is on a not be in winter on on a Sabbath.

    This could indicate the Jews who fled Jerusalem in 70 AD to survive the slaughter.

    4. False Christs--history shows many claiming this during Jesus's time on earth. We have to remember that demonic power was at an all time high during Christ's manifestation on Earth.

    5. One man plowing one left one gone, one in bed one left one gone.

    History shows approximately 1/2 of the population of Jerusalem were killed in the destruction. Does this really talk about rapture?

    and finally,

    6. Jesus telling them that this generation will not pass before these things are fulfilled.

    Whether or not a person is pre-mill, and without taking the rest of the Bible in context, you must admit that these possibly make a good case, at least for what Jesus is referring to in Chapter 24 of Mathew.

    I am not saying this is correct, but is this the viewpoint that you are establishing?
     
  11. Phillip

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    Oh, and lest we forget that NERO does work out to be "666" when the letters are added. Not only that but Nero slaughtered many Christians and did his best to stop the spread of Christianity.
     
  12. church mouse guy

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    No. The Tribulation is in the future. There has to be the abomination of desolation.

    The Jews did not flee Jerusalem in 70 AD; the Christians, however, fled because they knew the words of Jesus.

    As for your point about false Christs, look at how many of them we have in Los Angeles alone today.

    Back to the Jews for a moment--Petra seems to be the place prepared for them. First of all, Daniel ll:41 says that Edom will escape out of the hand of Anti-Christ, as well as Moab.

    Petra is in Edom.

    It is a deserted ancient city. I agree with those who say that the Jews in Judea will escape there when the Anti-Christ defiles the third temple. Evidently after the Edomites were kicked out of there, some Arabs built the place and then the Romans marched in and worked on it some more.
     
  13. Phillip

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    I do agree with you, church mouse guy, I was just wondering if you were taking the stance I was mentioning. Now tht we are straight on that, I can follow your line of thinking better. Sorry, 'bout that. Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page and you weren't believing that the trib occurred back then; although as I said there are "some" arguments for it. The majority are against it, especially if you take the whole Bible in context.
     
  14. HankD

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    Whenever there are discussion about the Second Coming and/or Calvin vs Arminius, I feel like the proverbial sheep without the shephard.

    I am not even sure concerning the point of this thread.

    But here is my problem when folks like to say that Matthew 24 has already been completely fulfilled (if that has any bearing on the current discussion):

    Matthew 24
    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    When have these items been fulfilled?

    I have seen some folks spiritualize/allegorize these events drawing from other scriptures to provide a metaphorical meaning and have even seen them mock other folks because they believe these verses to be literal as are the verses preceding them.

    Other Scriptures (both OT and NT) use literal language as well concerning these events.

    Personally I believe these post-tribulation events to be literal and that the entire universe will be shaken when our great God and Savior Jesus Christ comes in His Glory as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

    HankD
     
  15. church mouse guy

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    The beauty of Christianity is that Jesus said that He is coming again and that statement is our blessed hope.

    As long as we agree that Jesus will return, then we can differ on the details and still be close friends. We all learn from each other.
     
  16. church mouse guy

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    I want to thank DeafPosttrib for his fine discussion posted above!

    In Matthew 24, the disciples privately asked Jesus for the sign of His Second Advent, which Paul told Titus is our blessed hope. Here is the conversation and the answer that Jesus gave:

    Matthew 24:1-31 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matthew 24:36-44 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    Here are the questions asked in Matthew 24:3
    and a summary of the answers I see
    in Matthew 24:1-44 (this is a
    minority pretrib view):

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    I wish the post-tribs (of two different sorts
    that I know of) will give their post-trib
    views of the answers FROM THIS SCRIPTURE
    to the questions asked Jesus. An alternative
    choice usually taken by the post-tribs that
    i know is to DENY THESE three questions
    were asked. [​IMG]
     
  18. prophecynut

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    That was the near term fulfillment, it will happen again in the Trib.


    The end of age is when Christ reigns over mankind at the Second Coming. All the events in Rev. 6-19 are signs that precede the end of the age.


    The Tribulation consist of many signs (plural) preceding his coming. Mt. 24:30 requires a single sign, which is the Son of Man appearing in the sky as depicted in Rev. 19:11-16.

    The end of the age is the Second Coming after Tribulation yet ED says there are no signs given before the end of the age. Do you see how :confused: this man is :rolleyes:
     
  19. church mouse guy

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    The disciples asked about Jerusalem, "Tell us, when shall these things be?" I don't see that Jesus answered that question.

    Their second question to Jesus had two parts, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    Jesus answered that question in the rest of Matthew 24.
     
  20. prophecynut

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    Church mouse:

    What shall be the sign of your coming

    "Sign" is in the singular form as opposed to plural.

    singular: being the only one of its kind; sole; single; unique as, a singular item or specimen.

    What's a matter did you flunk English like I did.
     

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