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Featured Praying to the dead - should Christians do it?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Apr 19, 2013.

  1. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    I understand where you are coming from, and your reasoning is consistent in that it follows logically from your belief system.

    But there are a couple of things wrong with it: Apostolic Succession, or an unbroken line of monarchial bishops traced back to the apostles is, as Wesley discovered, a fable, reason being that in apostolic times there were no monarchial bishops and in the NT there were only two orders. We have gone into this before. However, this is not what is most important to the central issue of our discussion. What is central is that ordained bishops in apostolic succession has not and does not assure adherence to Biblical doctrine, as has been proven in all those denominations that claim such succession, the RCC included.

    The reason for the Protestant Reformation was because Luther discovered that the RC hierarchy with its apostolic succession had not maintained the Biblical faith.

    And today in such movements as Continuing Anglicanism groups have risen up to protest the departure from Biblical Christianity of apostate Anglican bishops ordained in apostolic succession.

    So, the so-called apostolic succession is no guarantee that the Biblical faith, the faith and teachings of the apostles, has been maintained and carried forward.

    No, adherence to scripture as the final authority, it being the sole record of the apostles' teaching, is the only true guarantor of authentic Biblical faith. Liberal Protestantism has departed from that, and so has the RCC by its centuries of added "traditions" which are not only not found in scripture but are contrary to it. In this respect, liberal Protestantism and the RCC are guilty of the same thing: they both set their non-Biblical traditions and additions above scripture.

    However, unlike some, I am very glad and thankful to have the RCC as an ally on moral issues, on which the RCC has stood firm.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I agree - they have a story that is not from the first century about the apostles flying to Mary at her death bed.


    It is a reference to the book "The assumption of Moses" and the text in Jude presumes that the reader has access to the story since almost none of it appears in Jude as if he had to inform the reader of the details.

    The bible is clear on the point that Moses died. So the only issue is about his resurrection and bodily assumption into heaven.

    Yes that is it. Given that the NT does mention God taking Enoch up to heaven - and given that the stories about Mary going to heaven do not surface for centuries after the event - it looks for all the world like an added - made up story.

    So then Enoch being taken to heaven in Heb 11 is salvific - but Mary assumed into Heaven, Co-redemptrix, Queen of heaven - is not as much related to salvation as the case for Enoch?


    Again - my point is that there is a huge to-do in the Catholic church over Mary going to heaven, co-redemptrix etc - but nothing at all about that in the Bible and yet during the first century we have lots of writings from NT saints about the things they considered to be important.

    How is it - this Mariology (Mariolotry) is so important now -but did not even make honorable mention among the Bible writers who were writing about stopping off to observe the days of unleavened bread in Acts 20:4-6 and where they were sailing, and whether to bring a coat or some books, or asking that one of the slaves be returned to their master - and then hopefully set free - etc.


    Precedent has set for a great many things - like the sun standing still, Giants before the flood, Jesus walking on the water - but that does not lend any legitimacy to claiming that Mary was a giant or Mary walked on water, or Mary caused the sun to stand still.

    In the context where the Bible writing is being done IN the first century itself we would expect supernatural events to show up as "worthy of mention" by the NT authors - and not some story that creeps in centuries later.

    Recall that in 2Thess 2:1-2 is worried about fake stories, fake letters - people making stuff up and trying to make it appear worthy of attention.

    If that was a problem in the first century - how much more so in later centuries where we have people writing letters as if they were in the first century - or making up stories about supernatural amazing fantastic events in the first century - that nobody talked about before.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    not ONE verse supports that in entire bible!
     
  4. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    Of course there are, but you just say we read too much into those verses. You and people like you who do not share the Catholic Christian faith life have difficulty with the appearance that in their prayers (petitions), Catholics appear to pray to the Saints, to Mary, as one prays to God. This "praying to" appears to you to indicate a worship of the Saint as if giving to the Saint or Mary what is due to God alone. I know, I used to be just like you!

    Through Baptism we pass "from death to life; death no longer has dominion over us." Christians must believe that there is no real distinction between the believer in human life and after human life. Saints, living or dead, are indistinguishable before God.

    If we can pray for and with saints in this life, we can pray for and with those saints after human life.

    And as Paul asked saints to imitate him as he imitates Christ, the Church encourages Christians to imitate the holiness of the saints as they imitated the holiness of Christ and the Father.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    This is called "begging the question" fallacy.
     
  6. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    Walter may as well pray to a tree. He'll get the same reply from the tree as he will praying to Mary... absolute silence and no results.
     
  7. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    I see no harm in praying for the dead. Having said that, I do not believe it does the dead any good nor ill. The primary positive aspect I can see is that is probably is psychologically good for the person praying for one they loved in life.
     
  8. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    The only instances we find in the Word of God of one praying for the dead is when one is praying for God to restore life into a dead body.

    I think it would be foolish for one to pray a prayer such as that once the dead are in the coffin and buried. Reminds me of the old joke, "What would Colonel Sanders be doing if he were alive today? ...Scratching on the lid of his coffin trying to get out."

    Seriously, praying for the one that is dead and buried is as useless as a Funk & Wagnall Encyclopedia is to a starfish.
     
  9. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    Are you omniscient?

    I don't think we can know if it would do any good or not, but I don't see that it would be harmful. So, if someone wants to do it, what's the problem with that? And I'm talking about praying for the dead, not to the dead.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What about praying to the dead?

    If one is praying to God for the dead - what would he/she be praying? "I hope my friend so-and-so had accepted Christ while he was alive - before he died"?

    "For it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgment" Hebrew 9.

    If so -- then I agree.:applause:

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. mactx

    mactx New Member

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    OK so I do not find any Bible verses on praying TO the dead.
    How about this one? This is one that has always boggled me.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "why are people baptized on their behalf?"

    Some translators argue that "on their behalf" is a bad translation of a word that means "in view of the dead" or "in view of that case" - in other words why is anyone baptized if the situation regarding the dead - is that there is no resurrection.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
    1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
    1Co 15:30 Why are we in danger every hour?

    I believe that this is not in reference to just any dead person, but only One... the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Many did not believe in the Resurrection. Paul was basically saying, "if the dead are not raised, why are you getting baptized in the name of one who you don't believe that One was resurrected?
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In either case - "on behalf of" is not the right translation. It has to be "in view of" or "because of the situation of" the dead not having any future resurrection (Be it of Christ or of the saints)- or something of that sort.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If the resurrection is the great hope of 1Thess 4 for the saints, and if 1Cor 15 places the issue of the resurrection as the one impacting both Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of the saints future - then as Peter said in 1 Peter 1:13 "Fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the Revelation of Jesus Christ" (2nd Coming) - which is the point where Paul said in Phil 3 he hoped to "attain to the resurrection".

    As 1Thess 4 points out - "comfort one another with these words" - it is the hope of the future resurrection - at the Revelation of Jesus Christ - at the 2nd coming - that is the hope upon which the Church is completely focused.

    Which is why it makes no sense to the dead.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
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