Pre-Age of Reason children.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by thessalonian, Feb 16, 2004.

  1. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    I asked these questions on another thread but I think it is worth starting another thread as I have been thinking about this for some time. The questions were with regard to justification by faith alone which D2B was in favor of. Now I am sure this thread will immediately turn in to a infant baptism thread and Catholicism must be wrong on that issue so we are right. Fine, please provide the level of biblical evidence you require of us. And do try to stay on topic (protestant view of the pre-age of reason child) as I am sure you would love to get sidetracked and I do realize that Catholicism's views are really your reference point for all topics as you cannot make your point without trying to refute ours.

    I ask the following questions with regard to Protestantism:

    So, how are children below the age of reason justified? Do they need justification or do they not need Jesus to get to heaven? Are there two paths of salvatoin, one for adults and one for children? Or do children who have not accepted Jesus go to hell? Also, can you show me where in the Bible this "age-of reason" doctrine is?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Wow, that's a strech. Any other takers?
     
  4. Chemnitz

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    I think I heard a snap. That interpretation of jn 12:32 smacks of universalism

    Since when is being "Able" a requirement for faith in Christ? If being able is a requirement then you cannot say God alone is responsible for salvation. Lets face if being able was a requirement then none of us would be born again. I believe the Holy Spirit can move even a child, who is still in the womb, to be born again even before they have left the womb. He does know us even before we are born.

    Your response sounds like there are two paths to salvation one for adults and one for "unreasoning" children.
     
  5. Brother Adam

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    The Lutheran is back. Cool.
     
  6. LaRae

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    I'm hearing crickets!

    This was a question I asked when I was non-Catholic...and never got an answer...it was just a vague, 'when you can understand' type of response.


    LaRae
     
  7. Chemnitz

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    Yeah, I am back [​IMG] . I been busy getting to know my wife these past 7 1/2 months btw I got married last june :D . Plus I have been busy working. So I haven't had much time to post, I was surprised to see my logon still active it has been so long. Besides, I had to come back, I mean somebody has to set you guys straight, doctrinally speaking. [​IMG]
     
  8. Gina B

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    I've never seen anything in the scriptures that makes this issue clear cut. There are some glimpses into it, such as being saved by the grace of God alone and David knowing he would be reunited with his son that seem to imply to me that infants are saved.
    One thing in the Catholic church that really bothers me is their stance toward this. My best friend is Catholic (don't everyone gasp all at once now) and last year her twins were stillborn. They were baptized, so they wouldn't go to hell. (not trying to turn this into a thread on baptism, but as long as we're talking salvation what happened seemed to imply that she was being told her babies would be in hell if they weren't baptized, which has a lot to do with salvation!)
    I find no scriptures for infant damnation, and only hints at infant salvation.
    So IMO nobody can do much more than give a somewhat educated opinion.
    And to add a bit more about the whole schmeal with debating doctrines with certain denoms...
    Is there really any point to going into much conversation with people who don't even agree on what scriptures are? How far can two people get when one is using one set of scriptures as proof and the other is using a different set?
    Gina
     
  9. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    Gina,

    If infants can be saved, but we are saved by faith alone, how are infants saved?

    Again, are there two paths of salvation, one for children and one for adults?

    Maybe its not important to you, but seeing as how I will be an uncle next month (my brother and sister-in-laws first baby boy!), I think its quite imperative to know the status of that child before God. I don't see it as unimportant or something that we can just say "well, just form your best opinion on the matter."
     
  10. LaRae

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    I don't know why your friend would think they would be in hell. The Church does not teach that unbaptized babies go to hell. The teaching is that we entrust unbaptized babies to the Mercy of God!


    LaRae
     
  11. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    Gina,

    I have been involved in similar situations and I think you are likely misrepresenting why those infants were "baptized". But your post is going to derail the thread and so I will not fully address it. Apparently by your post, all salvatoin is not by faith alone and there is some other form of salvation for infants or they must simply go to hell. Where does the Bible speak of this "other" type of salvatoin. For didn't Peter say in Acts 2:39-40 that the message of the Gospel was for the people's children as well? Is the Gospel for pre-age of reason children?

    Please participate by answering the questions I have asked rather than trying to define your belief by "proving" Catholicism wrong. I know this is very hard for a PROTESTant. Try for a moment to just ignore Catholicism completely and give reason for the hope that is within you about children who die based on the scriptures.

    Blessings
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Wow! That was detailed!

    Any other replies?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    God said "By Grace are you saved through faith" Eph 2-- Not just some annoying protestant.

    God said that "Whosoever believes on Him should not perish" John 3:16 - not just some anti-Catholics.

    Believe it.

    ONLY in the case where "Belief" is not possible do we see God establishing His rule of mercy - that allows the principle of James 4 "Whoever KNOWS to do right and does it not to HIM it is sin" - to work in their favor.

    It is simple - but as usual for the RC system it is an "opportunity" introduce magic holy water and magic phrases - and magic "powers" for the RC priests.

    Sad - but true.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Chemnitz

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    thessalonian, You might want to be a little careful throwing around the word "protestant" the way you are.

    Not all "protestants" believe in the "Age of Reason" as you put it. A more accurate term would be Reformed/Arminan as those are the two groups that tend toward that belief. Lutherans who I suspect fall under your definition of "protestant" do not believe in the "Age of Reason"

    I think it is sad that there are people who believe belief is not possible.

    [ February 16, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  15. Brother Adam

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    magic Bob? Are we playing "how low can you go"?
     
  16. Harley4Him

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    I think Calvin would say they are lost if they die before birth or the "age or reason".

    Not sure if this quote is exactly on topic, but I think this quote is saying that if you die before you are able to make a decision for Christ, then you pretty much had no chance.
     
  17. thessalonian

    thessalonian
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    My apologies. I stand corrected.

    Blessings
     
  18. Brother Adam

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    There are many reformed protestants who have concluded that anyone who has not made an intellectual decision to follow Christ will burn in hell, including infants and handicapped persons.

    I know my wife believed that infants go to hell for a while.

    I think the whole idea is repulsive.
     
  19. LaRae

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    There's a pastor on another forum (I believe he is Evangelical) who believes that unbaptized babies go to hell ....even his own miscarried children.


    LaRae
     
  20. Gina B

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    I'm not misrepresenting, I posted what I understood of what happened at the time. I didn't get into the details of it with her, and probably never will. The baptism made her feel better and made her feel like there was no possibility of her children going to hell, the priest or whoever he was said it needed done, etc..

    I did answer your question. There isn't enough in scripture to come up with a soundproof theory saying there is some mystical age of understanding.
    I believe in election, and it makes sense to me that infants who die would be among the elect. It also makes sense to me that there is no age to a person's spirit and that in heaven our knowledge is complete, so our idea of gestational age infants or babbling 9 month olds in heaven probably isn't a reality.
    I've heard some people, protestants included, say as if they know for sure one way or the other. I've never seen any of them able show it to me in the bible with any degree of certainty though.
    Gina
     

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