pre-trib..mid-trib..post trib....

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Spirit and Truth, Apr 10, 2004.

  1. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    So when will the rapture occur? Please use scripture only to prove your position, not extra Biblical sources or opinions.
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    Matthew 24:29-31 telling us, immediately after the tribulation, the sun, moon, and stars become darkened, then Christ appears in the clouds with power and glory, the world will see him as they shall mourn because of him(see Rev. 1:7). Then, verse 31 saying, Christ shall send his angels to gathering all his lect by follow the shout of the trumpet(see 1 Thess. 4:15-17).

    Obivously, Christ tells us, He shall come after tribulation to gathering us together.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    Obviously Matthew 24-35 (and other Mount Olivet
    Discourse /MOD/ scriptures) clearly
    show the rapture to be pretribulation:

    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    etc&gt;)


    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.


    [​IMG]
     
  4. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    Preach it Bro. Ed!!!!! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    S&T:

    Who are the elect that these verses refer to:

    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

    Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

    Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

    Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    1Ti 5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

    Tts 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    .
     
  6. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Who is Jesus referring to here:

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Jesus revealed apocalyptic events to John as things that were, are, and will be:</font>
    • Rev 1 He revealed Himself as glorified Lord</font>
    • Rev 2-3 He revealed messages to the churches of John's area</font>
    • Rev 4 He calls John up to heaven</font>
    • Rev 5-19 He revealed what would happen in the tribulation</font>
    • Rev 20 He revealed the Kingdom on earth</font>
    • Rev 21-22 He revealed the eternal heaven and New Jerusalem</font>
    So John was called up to heaven PRIOR to the events of the Tribulation unfolding. A really neat picture of what Jesus will do for His Bride. And we will get a grandstand seat in heaven for the marriage supper (7 years) before returning to reign with Christ.
     
  8. Bro Tony

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    Dr Bob,

    Right On [​IMG]

    Isn't it amazing how logical and smooth flowing the book of Revelation is when people don't turn it into some mystified allegory!

    Bro Tony
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Dr. Bob Griffin -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    During the Chruch Age God's "target" is the gentiles
    (and some Messanic Jews). During the Tribulation Period
    God's "target" is the Jews

    Romans 11:12 (nKJV):

    Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their
    failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

    In fact, when Jesus goes after the Jews in the Tribulation
    Period Judgement, the Gentiles will be FULLY BLESSED in heaven.

    The elect saints in the Gentile Age are:
    chruch age Born-again redeemed Christian elect saints.

    The elect saints in the Age before the Gentile Age
    and again during the Tribulation Period Judgement are
    Jewish Israeli elect saints.

    Two age/time seperated groups of saints:
    1. chruch age Born-again redeemed Christian elect saints
    2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

    Note both groups are also called "church". In light of eternity,
    the two groups are both part of the eternal church of Jesus.

    Romans 11:15 (nKJV):

    For if their being cast away is the reconciling
    of the world, what will their acceptance be
    but life from the dead?

    During the Tribulatation Period Judgement the Jewish
    Israeli elect saints church will be literally (and spiritually)
    resurrected from the dead into life.

    BTW, did everybody know that some 7th Day Adventists say
    that the MARK OF THE BEAST is Sunday WOrship?
    Do you bear the mark of the beast (MOB)?

    Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 18 describe the
    things Jesus said on the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD).
    They are parallel passages.

    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    this is during the tribulation period and refer
    to the Jewish Isreali elect saints



    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    this is the collection of the gentile age elect saints
    at the end of the gentile age


    Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

    this is parallel with Matthew 24:24.
    this is during the tribulation period and refer
    to the Jewish Isreali elect saints


    Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    this is parallel with Matthew 24:31.
    this is the collection of the gentile age elect saints
    at the end of the gentile age


    Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

    without checking the context, this seems like it would
    apply to either group, each in their own time


    Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

    without checking the context, this seems like it would
    apply to either group, each in their own time


    Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    without checking the context, this seems like it would
    apply to either group, each in their own time


    One more point about the two groups:

    1Co 10:32 (KJV1769):

    Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

    These are three groups:
    the Gentils are NOT God's elect saints;
    the Jews are God's elect saints;
    the Church of God is God's elect saints.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    The New Testament Mysteries point to
    the veracity of the pretrib position.

    1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

    Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
    10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
    "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
    11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
    has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
    OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
    not been given.

    The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
    given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

    I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
    describe the Church Age. The Church Age
    goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
    During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
    humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
    to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
    This period in HIS-story can also be called
    "the age of the gentiles".

    2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

    Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
    For I do not desire, brethren, that you
    should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
    should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
    in part has happened to Israel until the
    fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    26. And so all Israel will be saved,

    I've had several interesting discussions
    with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
    prospects that when the last possible gentile
    (Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
    as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
    resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
    Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
    of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


    3. Mystery of the Rapture

    1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
    but we will all be changed -- ...

    1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

    Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
    looking for the blessed hope and
    glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
    Christ

    Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
    when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
    for after the tribulation there will only be a few
    handfuls of living saints.


    4. Mystery of His Will

    Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
    And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
    to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
    10 to be put into effect when the times will have
    reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
    in heaven and on earth together under one head,
    even Christ.
    11 In him we were also chosen, having
    been predestined according to the plan of him who
    works out everything in conformity with
    the purpose of his will,
    12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
    Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

    May God's will be done!

    From Eternity past God has intended
    to bring all things together in Christ.

    This joining inclues the gentile church and
    the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
    rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
    of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
    to bring Yisrael back to Him.


    5. Mystery of Christ:
    the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

    ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

    2 Surely you have heard about the administration
    of God's grace that was given to me for you,
    3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
    as I have already written briefly.
    4 In reading this, then, you will be able
    to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
    5 which was not made known to men in other generations
    as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
    to God's holy apostles and prophets.
    6 This mystery is that through the gospel
    the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
    members together of one body, and sharers
    together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
    7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
    gift of God's grace given me through the working
    of his power.
    8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
    people, this grace was given me: to preach to
    the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
    9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
    of this mystery, which for ages past was
    kept hidden in God, who created all things.
    10 His intent was that now, through the church,
    the manifold wisdom of God should be made
    known to the rulers and authorities in
    the heavenly realms,
    11 according to his eternal purpose
    which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    12 In him and through faith in him
    we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

    This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
    define "mystery".

    The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
    are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
    At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
    of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
    to bring Yisrael back to Him.


    6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

    Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

    for we are members of his body.
    31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
    and mother and be united to his wife,
    and the two will become one flesh."
    32 This is a profound mystery--but I
    am talking about Christ and the church.
    33 However, each one of you also must
    love his wife as he loves himself,
    and the wife must respect her husband

    Revelation 19: (NIV):

    Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
    For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.
    8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
    was given her to wear."
    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

    Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
    before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
    or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


    7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

    John 15:4 (NIV)
    Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
    No branch can bear fruit by itself;
    it must remain in the vine.
    Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    Galations 2:20 (NIV)
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no
    longer live, but Christ lives in me.
    The life I live in the body, I live
    by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
    and gave himself for me.

    Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
    For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

    Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
    the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
    and generations, but is now disclosed
    to the saints.
    27 To them God has chosen to make known
    among the Gentiles the glorious
    riches of this mystery, which is
    Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
    beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
    within each saint!

    What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
    ALL GLORY!

    What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


    8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

    Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
    attaining to all riches
    of the full assurance of understanding, to the
    knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
    the Father and of Christ,

    1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
    the hidden wisdom which God ordained
    before the ages for our glory.

    Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
    this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
    certainly before the Church Age.
    And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
    in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
    which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

    How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
    God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
    as some nay-sayers promote?


    9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

    This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
    master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
    in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
    Will Jesus let His Church be around when
    the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

    2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
    For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
    work; only He who now restrains will do so
    until He is taken out of the way.
    And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

    Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
    pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
    2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
    in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

    1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
    2. Day of Christ:
    -2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
    --removal of the restrainer
    -2b. the revelation of the man of sin
    -2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
    -2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    -2e. the destruction of the man of sin

    2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
    But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
    you and guard you from the evil one.

    And this is all summed up in one word:

    '\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


    _

    10. Mystery of Godliness

    1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
    And without controversy great
    is the mystery of Godliness:

    God was manifested in the flesh,
    Justified in the Spirit,
    Seen by angels,
    Preached among the Gentiles,
    Believed on in the world,
    Received up in glory.

    And that is just what God had done up
    to the time of the writing.
    Later He will:

    Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
    Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
    Return to earth at the Second Advent
    Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
    Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


    11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

    Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
    The mystery of the seven stars which you
    saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
    lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
    the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
    which you saw are the seven churches.

    Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
    the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
    in double completeness.
    And when the church on earth is comple,
    the Jesus will rapture the church.
    And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
    take place in heaven as the Tribulation
    takes place on earth.


    12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:
    This mystery forcasts the final
    world apostate church of
    the Tribulation after the Rapture.

    Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

    And on her forehead a name was written:
    MYSTERY,
    BABYLON THE GREAT,
    THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
    ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


    13. Mystery of God

    This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
    program to consummate history during the
    the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

    All the mystery prophecies concerning the
    Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
    relevant to Israel
    and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

    Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
    but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
    angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
    of God would be finished, as He declared
    to His servants the prophets.

    Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
    Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
    Return to earth at the Second Advent
    Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
    Rule the earth on the Throne of David

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    No one answered my question about who the elect were....hmmmmmmm.
     
  12. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Ed:

    These are three groups:
    the Gentils are NOT God's elect saints;
    the Jews are God's elect saints;
    the Church of God is God's elect saints.

    S&T:

    Are you referring to saved or unsaved Jews? Please give me an explanation of Matt 24:21.
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    On Monday, I will post with verses on rapture, I know pretribulational background very well, because I am ex-pretrib. Pretribulational have lot of problems and twisted verses by misinterpreting them.

    Also, Spirit and Truth have rightful asking a question, who are the elect?

    Pretribbers have to answer a question, who are the elect?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  14. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Let's take a look at this from a different perspective. If the post tribbers are wrong, and they are spiritually prepared for a post trib rapture, and then get the early bus out, then it is really no problem....BUT..if the pre-trib people, who are not mentally prepared have to stay to the end, it might be a little ..should we say...scary...it could shake the "faith" of many a little...would you say?
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    The question has been
    answered to my satisfaction.
    Posties have not been satisfied with the
    scriptural answer.
    Take it up with Messiah Jesus.

    [​IMG]

    Spirit and Truth: " ... for the pre-trib people, who are
    not mentally prepared have to stay to the end,
    it might be a little ..should we say...scary ... "

    But, a pre-trib person who is also OSAS has no fear.
    Even if the forces of antichrist force the mark upon you,
    you stay saved.

    BTW, i've never seen a postie that I though had a serious
    and workable plan for getting through
    the tribulation period.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    The majority of the Jews
    are unsaved here where we are
    in the gentile age. The Tribulation Period
    Judgement is the design of God to save
    a maximum number of Jews. The Jews now
    have to individually accept Jesus as Lord
    for Him to be their Savior. When the
    antichrist goes into the Temple in Jerusalem
    and defiles it, committing the Abomination
    of Desolation (AOD) then a majority ofJews will
    individually see Him as the true Messiah
    (not the phoney messiah of the antichrist).
    Then Jesus will be their savior as well
    as their Lord and Messiah. God will
    protect the Jews through the wrath the
    last half of the Tribualtion Period.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Then you are saying that God is a respecter of persons, and has two separate groups of "elect"?
     
  18. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Ed:

    BTW, i've never seen a postie that I though had a serious and workable plan for getting through
    the tribulation period.

    S&T:

    It is the same plan that Noah had, that Daniel had in the lions den, that the three boys had in the fiery furnace, and that the Jews had with the lambs blood on the door posts. Divine intervention and protection. Don't leave home without it.
     
  19. sharpSword

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    Ed edwards "BTW, i've never seen a postie that I though had a serious
    and workable plan for getting through
    the tribulation period. "

    A workable plan through any tribulation, regardless of how bad, is to rest in Christ and be fully obedient and trusting.

    Whether one believes in pre- or post....we are not guaranteed lack of persecution or even death in serving Jesus Christ. And to think otherwise is not in keeping with many Scriptures.

    The workable plan, regardless of circumstances, is this:

    John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

    John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth...20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
    6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD...9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. 10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.
    11 Teach me thy way, O LORD, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.
    12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.
    13 I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living. 14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

    Psalm 64:2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:

    Psalm 143:9 Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me.

    Psalm 91

    We are told to do this regarding making plans:

    James 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
    14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
    15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
    16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

    I think trusting our Lord is a real workable plan, don't you?
     
  20. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Oh, and BTW, Jesus had it too. No one was allowed to lay hands on Him until the appointed time.
     

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