Pre-Trib - not strongly supported Biblically

R. Charles Blair: "When I was a member of a dispensational group, in 1952-53 in college, I noticed an interesting thing: they usually set up an organized, logical system of doctrine, with Scripture references added but not quoted, but when I read those passages, somehow I couldn't find what they had to do with the logical statements!"

I think this is not deceiption, but confusion.
People ask questions that the Bible just doesn't
answer. Some i've seen recently are:

1. How does the Millinnial Kingdom world get populated?
2. When will the Tribulation period start
3. Who will be the Antichrist?
4. Will Damascus be destroyed before or after the rapture?
5. What direction will Jesus and His accompanying
"armies of heaven" be facing when Jesus comes again?

As usual, when you extrapolate, you are prone to making errors.

 

3rd request Ed. Does sin exist in the next age?

Huh?

Heaven and Earth are metaphores for elements of the Old Covenant. Check out the OT sometime. Or read Josephus who alludes to the Temple and its outer courts as the Jew's "Heaven and Earth" in his Antiqities.

No, I just saw you post that Jesus continues to tarry.

2 Peter 3:9 means just what it says, God will do it on His timetable.
Hebrews 10:37 means what it says as well, He WILL NOT TARRY.

I know which one you think is incorrect since you've already eliminated one.

 

Grasshopper, Ed is too busy to stop and chat right now, so I will attempt to give you an answer.

The "age to come" denotes what is to come after the close of this age, i.e. this world. The present age will continue until the end of the millennium when this world will be destroyed.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. Rev. 20:11
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Rev. 21:1

The coming of the new heaven and new earth will be the dawning on the "age to come". And since this will occur after the final rebellion of mankind, after the destruction of the world, after the final judgement of Satan and his punishment of being cast into the lake of fire, after the final judgement of lost mankind before the great white throne, I can safely say that, No, there will not be sin in the age to come.

The age to come will be the perfection that God meant in Eden, befoer Adam and Eve rebelled against God. The inhabitants of the age will be the redeemed, clothed in their new bodies like unto Christ. All will be in perfect harmony.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Rev. 21:4

Oh, I do so look forward to that time!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Really? What does this verse mean?

Matt 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come.

This verse indicates that sin will be present in "the age to come", because this sin will not be forgiven.

We live in what the NT writers called the "age to come".

Pre-AD70(this age) Post AD70(the age to come)

 

I don't see where you get that from. Nor do I get the whole "this is all about the destruction of the temple" shebang comes from either.

I am not trying to belittle when you believe. Honestly, I am not. But I would like to try to understand how one comes to the position of amill or postmill. I truly do not see it.

As far as the age to come, I stand by what I said. There will be no sin in the new heaven and new earth. And that is the age to come. I look forward to seeing you there.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Matt 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him , neither in this age, nor in that which is to come.

 

In the New Testament "this age" refers
to the same age in which we now live.

The "next age" is the physical Millinnial Kingdom
of Jesus.

 

Trotter

Ed, I'll let you and Trotter figure out what the next age is. There seems to be some disagreement.

 

Either way, it will be an upgrade to what we have now.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

A three-way disagreement on
"sin in the next age". For all it's
worth, we might as well be nice
to each other

 

Brethren - It's all still very interesting, but I haven't noticed anyone coming to grips with the literal words of our Lord mentioned in my two earlier posts. In Matt. 11:21-24, Jesus Himself puts "the cities where His mighty works were done" in the (one) judgment with Tyre and Sidon and the land of Sodom. In Mt. 12:39-42, He puts the men of Nineveh, who repented (and, I assume we all agree, were saved?) "in judgment with this generation" of lost religious leaders, and says that the queen of Sheba "shall rise up in the judgment with this generation and shall condemn it." (I wish I had underscore or italic for the definite article - THE judgment, not "one of the judgments.") In John 5:25-29, Jesus Himself says that "the hour is coming when ALL who are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth"
(the lost goats to stand at the left, the saved sheep at the right, a resurrection of condemnation for the lost, of life for the saved.)
And the original word "hour" is "a short time," even our 60-minute hour, not a thousand years between. Millenialism has no answer for these very literal words of Jesus except to say, "But that doesn't fit our theology!" I would enjoy seeing (next Saturday night) some attempt at discussing these passages. Also, look at Rev. 1:7: "EVERY eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him" (many of whom were dead by the time John received this revelation!) While it is not a "general judgment to see who is saved and who is lost," it is hard to escape the literal force of these expressions, that all will be raised at the same short time, saved and lost seeing Him together. (By the way, note that our Lord's public ministry was also 3 1/2 years, and many believe that it was another 3 1/2 before the Jerusalem church was scattered in Acts 8, making 7 years for official Israel's opportunity and judgment. That last figure is not spelled out in Scripture, so I won't insist on it.)

Jesus is coming again! Halleujah!-RCB - Ro. 8:28

 

Blair,



I am waiting to hear comment from any premiller to react on Matt. 11:21-24.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Blair: //Millenialism has no answer for these very literal words of Jesus except to say, "But that doesn't fit our theology!" //

1. Your literal interpertation of those
verses shows some lack of knowledge on
your part. In fact, you tend to blacken
the white and whiten the black. You need
to study up on "all", "hour", "the",
"a", and God's concept of time (which is
quite different from our own. See, God
is not only omnipresent /present at all
places/ God is omnichromatic /present
at all times/.

2. Revelation chapter 20 is not in
your Bible? Maybe not even the book
of Revelation?

3. And you might want to bone up on "and".


Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God.

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR
Biblical judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Ed,

your logically of your outline about the judgement days.

The Bible does not support your logical.

Also, you not yet respond on Matt 11:21-24.

So, Blair and I are still waiting for you(Ed), and anyone to reply back on Matt 11:21-24.

The Bible does not teaching us, there are three judgement days.

The Bible teaches us there is only ONE judgement day at the second advent. - Dan. 7:9-13; Matt. 25:31-46; Acts 10:42; Romans 14:10,11; Phil 2:10-11; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 20:11-15.

I do not see three judgement days in the Bible such as:

1. Judgement seat of Christ - Church at rapture before Trib

2. Judgement of nations - sheep & goats at seond coming

3. Great White Throne - all unbelievers at end of millennium

According to what premil/pretrib teaching.

I can see there is only ONE judgement day in the Bible.

Now, I would like Ed and anyone to explain on Matt. 11:21-24 to us, please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Thank you for
conceding that I am correct. In my post
I mentioned a source (probably lost now)
that mentions 24 different Biblical judgements.
Those 24 include the five general judgements
that i mentioned above and, of course,
19 other judments.
Your attempt to merge the three into
one and not being able to "see" them
means you are blind and that I am right.
For you see I didn't invent what
i put into the Who, when, where, etc.
And because each of these have differences
in the timing, they are different judgements.

One think for sure, Judgement is sure.
God will Judge. Are you ready for God's
Judgement on you?

 

DPT,

What is the problem with Matthew 11:21-24? Jesus was voicing His feelings about those cities that had see Him and His mighty works but still did not believe. He said that if the same had been done in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, that they would have repented and still be standing. So what is the problem?

Unless you are trying to take these words as saying that God was going to judge these cities as He did Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, there is no problem. But if that is what you are thinking, you are way off base.

Jesus was taling to the crowds that had flocked around Him. He was giving them a piece of His mind. You have to start back in verse 7 to hear the whole speach. He asked them what they expected to see when they came to hear John the Baptist. Then He compared them to children in the marketplace, all sulled up because He didn't play their game. He scolded them for stereotyping John and Himself. Then He speaks on how if Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom had witnessed all that Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum had, then they would have repented and believed and would still be standing.

So, what part don't you understand?

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Amen, Brother Trotter -- Preach it!

 

I have followed this thread with great interest and I have three questions that I would like for someone to answer from scripture .


1) Which one of the following has not been accomplished from Daniel 9:24?
Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
2) What is it that brings a person to an understanding of a pre-tribulation rapture?
3) What does the passage from 2The. 2:7-8 refer to?
For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;

Maranatha!
Rodney

 

Brother Firedome: IMHO the answer to your questions lies
outside the data, i.e. must be extrapolated.
Thus no satisfactory answer can be found from scripture.

To extrapolate one must be aware of the data.
That means that the great Doctrines must be known and
understood: the nature of God, the nature of Man,
the nature of sin, the nature of the Christ.
Only then can we hope to extrapolate properly.

I used to discuss all these matters at length
at Rapture Ready. But, as in Exodus 1:8, some
new moderators came who knew me not, and booted
me out, possibly for praying for people in public
which some took as sarcastic, but they knew
me not either.

Whould you get offended if i prayed this for you?

May all GOd's best blessing be unto Brother Firedome,
his family, and his ministry. Amen.

Well, i know DeafPosttrib doesn't mind!

May all GOd's best blessing be unto Brother DeafPosttrib,
his family, and his ministry. Amen.

 

EE,

I don't know if I quite understand your response. I think you are saying that you don't know. Is this right? If so how can one be sure of anything? Maybe trotter should answer this one based on his post on the first page of this topic where he stated that he believes the pre-tribulation position as a result from reading God's Word and not what someone taught him.

Maranatha,
Rodney