Pre-Trib - not strongly supported Biblically

Firedome: "I think you are saying that you don't know. Is this right?"

No. I know, it just isn't clear in the Bible using
the words that people like. You have made a request
that cannot be fulfilled. I have the answers satisfactory
to me, not necissarily to you.

Firedome: "Maybe trotter should answer this one based
on his post on the first page of this topic where
he stated that he believes the pre-tribulation position
as a result from reading God's Word and not what someone taught him."

Maybe so. I was taught from God's written word, not a
bunch of pretrib books.

 

EE,

If I implied that you have learned from reading pre-trib books I apologize. That was not my goal. My comment was aimed at the fact that you could not answer the question from scripture, that is all. Again, I am seeking the answers to these questions not as to roast one over an open fire but to seek a witness.

Maranatha,
Rodney

 

Obviously i'm talking here
to others beside you. So i must overcome their
objections as well as yours. You have committed
no offence, therefor you need not
apologize (unless you are wanting to
keep in practice ).

I wanted to be real and not phony.
People ask questions that the Bible
just doesn't answer. For example:
Is it a sin to snort coke? The Bible
says nothing about cocaine, nothing.
But the Bible says a lot about phony
appetites (AKA: lusts). The need to
do cocaine is a lust and thus a sin.
So general principles are in the
Bible, specifics are sometimes missing.

If you want instant answers here,
forget it. If you are willing to learn
for a couple of years, let us continue our
visit.

Praise Jesus

 

EE,

Allright then, firstly I will bring my second question to the table.

"What is it that brings a person to an understanding of a pre-tribulation rapture?"

Surely this can be answered from scripture for isn't our whole belief based on sola scriptura? Surely God opens the scriptures unto those who are His chosen. There has to be specific references from His Word that brings us unto the point of being grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel. If we cannot attain our doctrine from God's Word, what makes us any different from the Catholics?

Maranatha,
Rodney

 

Firedome,

Ed is a very intelligent guy. He knows the Lord, and he knows His word.

I don't know if I can give you an answer that you would be satisfied with, but I can try.

As to Daniel 9:24, I dunno. I just don't get all the stuff that everyone else seems to get out of Daniel. I do see a lot of great things there, but not all that others do.

As to coming to an understanding of the pre-trib Rapture, well, that I can try to do.

In John 14:2-3, Jesus is talking to His disciples in the upper room the night before His crucifixition. He is trying to prepare them for what is about to happen. He tells them not to worry, but believe. Then Jesus tells them that there are many dwellings in His Father's house, and that He is going to prepare a place for them, and will come back for them to take them with Him so that they may stay with Him.

Of course, the disciples did not understand this at all. Jesus also told them that He would not leave them without help, but would ask the Father to send the Parakletos to them, who would teach them all things and bring back to their memory everything He had taught them.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, Paul tells us that not everyone will be dead when the Lord returns. He says that we shall all be changed in an instant, from mortal to immortal, at the trumpet call of God (this is not the trumpets of Revelation, because it is just one blast).

In 1 Thesalonians 1:10, paul tells us "to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." And in 2:19, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? " And 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. "

Then in 1 Thessalonins 4:13-18, Paul paints us a picture that is absolutely breath-taking.
13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

"Shall be caught up" is the translation of the Greek harpazo , which means "catch (up, away), pluck, pull, take." The word "Rapture" comes from the Latin version of this verb.

As to the timing of this, look to the very next chapter. In chapter 5 Paul begins by telling the Thessalonians " For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. " He goes on to tell them not to sleep, but to be sober and to watch, being ready by "putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation."

As to how this is pre-trib, look back to 1 Thess 1:10. The word "wrath" is orge . If you look to Revelation, the word "wrath" appears several times. About half of these are orge , or a form of it. The others are thumos , which means "fierceness." Thus, the "wrath of the Lord" is the " orge of the Lord." Same thing. At least, that is how it is settled in my mind.

I am sure that there is much more to be said for and against, but I am not writing for a doctorate. This is what I put together just sitting here typing. I could take a few days and really go in depth, but I won't (too much time involved, I already know what I believe, and don't have to prove anything).

Oh, and your last question, the one who restrains is the Holy Spirit residing in the hearts of believers. After the Rapture, the church will no longer be filling the gap for the rest of the world, and Satan will have free reign. "The Wicked" there refers to the leader that Satan will raise up, which John calls the Antichrist. Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet will all be defeated at the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation period (Rev. 19:11-20:10).

I don't know if these answers are of any help to you. None are just a single verse or two. All of them are composite pictures of several passages. But then, almost all of the great doctrines of the Bible are seen the same way.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

Ed,

I have a simple one question for you. Please show me where one verse in the Bible saying rapture will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before the second coming?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Passage knocks Pretribulationism Theory out

"...The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? He said unto them, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat WITH them, Let both GROW TOGETHER UNTIL the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."- Matt. 13:28-30

Christ tells us, the parable about the harvest. The servants ask the master, shall we go ahead gathering them now? The master tells them, no, let both (tares and wheat) GROW TOGETHER till the harvest comes, then will tell to the reapers to gather all tares by separate from the wheat, cast tares in the fire.

Christ tells us, both believers and unbelievers are grow together in the world right now. Unbelievers CANNOT separate from the believers TILL Christ comes with the angels.

It is so very, very clear posttrib coming of Christ, and there is the only one harvest at the second coming.

Do not argue with me. Argue with Christ's intepreting on the harvest.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

2 Thess. 2:1-3 tell us, our gathering together shall not come till we shall see falling away first and the revealed of Antichrist.

2 Thess. 2:3 cannot be pretrib, because Apostle Paul tells us, we shall see apostasy first and then face the revealed of Antichrist. It is so simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

I'm psycic
I answered your question as near as it
can be answered before you asked it.
Do you dispute any of the scriptures
i quoted above?

 

No my friend & Brother,
I argue with you. We both know what
Jesus said, the words are clear.
What we argue is what those words mean.
You understand a future scanario where
your best hope is that you will die
before you have to suffer to long.
The pretrib hope is that many of us
will never have to see the first death.
(caveat: non of us are worthy of this,
but if it Fulfills God's plan for the
ages and we don't have to die -- cool!)

Why do you take the parable of the harvest
and FORCE THE REST OF SCRIPTURE to fit
that there is one and only one harvest
at the end of the age? Parables should
never superceed clear writings.
Parables are to tell a truth simpler
than it really is so we can understand
it better. It is foolish to get
event timing from parables.

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

 

The fallin away
is our gathering together.

 

Amen, Brother Trotter - Preach it.

And all the great & true doctrines dovetail
into the Pretribualtion Rapture.
If i had time to write books, i'd show how
each of the multiple-scripture Doctrines
of the Bible all end in the Pretribulation
Rapture of the born-again church-age elect
saints as the finish of God's plan
for this age.

Take Salvation.
Salvation consits of three parts:
1. justification (past, if you are saved)
2. sanctification (present)
3. glorification (future)

Of course, Jesus is the one who saves.
Jesus justifies, when He forgave your
of your sins when you were first saved.
Jesus sanctifies when He cleans you
daily of your continuing shortcomings.
Jesus glorifies on that day of the
pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection.

I pray that DeafPosttrib will one day
hear the trumpet call that wakes the dead.
Then i hope DeafPosttrib hears Jesus say:
Well done, thou good and faithful
servant, enter in.

Amen, Glory to the Lord, and Oh - Sweet Jesus.
Isn't that pretrib rapture going to be
exciting! I sure wish it would be today.

I have a pretrib friend. God delivered
him from a bad alcohol problem. He goes
out in the yard and works there a lot.
He does what he calls: rapture practice.
He jumps up in the air. He sure hopes
one day he won't land on the ground
but sure enough, our Lord Jesus will
catch him instead

 

Ed,

I do not make to force scripture to fit only one harvest. I can read and understand very clear what the scripture saying, not by my own idea. That what Christ saying.

I ask you, is rapture part of the harvest?

I am still waiting for you to show one verse to prove me rapture will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years before second coming.

You still often saying that Matt 24:31 is 'pretrib' gathering separate from the context of Matt. 24:29-31. You did not follow the hermenuetic rule - Intepreting in contextually. Many pretribbers in this fourm would not agree with you, that Matt 24:31 is 'pretrib' gathering together. Many pretribbers intepret Matt 24:31 speak of Jews' gathering at the second advent.

I do agree with you that Matt 24:31 is rapture of the Christian, but it does not saying, 'pretrib'. Obivously, our gathering together shall be after the tribulation in the context of Matt 24:29-31. Many pretribbers know that.

All dictionaries include Greek word of 'falling away' - 2 Thess 2:3 does not support the define of rapture.

'Falling away' in Greek word - 'apostasia' #646 - Strong's Concordance defines, depart from the faith, depart from the truth.

Early Church understood 'falling away' always mean depart from the faith, and truth. None of them saying it is rapture. Till in the mid of 1950's, many scholars and pretrib pastors adopt Dr. English Schuyler's define on 'falling away' means depart of the saints is rapture.

They know better than that, because they do not follow what the Greek word actually say and mean.

Apostle Paul clearly telling us, that our gathering together shall not come till we shall see apotasy first and the revealed of Antichrist. 2 Thess. 2:3 does not fit with pretrib doctrine.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Brother Trotter,

Thank you for that bit on the word wrath, it is proving quite enjoyable.

You wrote:
"Ed is a very intelligent guy. He knows the Lord, and he knows His word."

I never said otherwise.

You wrote:
"In John 14:2-3, Jesus is talking to His disciples in the upper room the night before His crucifixition. He is trying to prepare them for what is about to happen. He tells them not to worry, but believe. Then Jesus tells them that there are many dwellings in His Father's house, and that He is going to prepare a place for them, and will come back for them to take them with Him so that they may stay with Him."

"Of course, the disciples did not understand this at all. Jesus also told them that He would not leave them without help, but would ask the Father to send the Parakletos to them, who would teach them all things and bring back to their memory everything He had taught them."

How does this passage relate to the rapture?

1Co 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is my understanding that the pre-trib view states that we will be raised incorruptible at the last trumpets sound and this will be done secretly. People will wonder where everyone went and it will be falsely attributed to something like UFOs or something that will lead to a great delusion falling upon the people. These people will believe the lie and will enter into a pact with Satan, hence the mark of the beast. My question is how can anything be a secret if a trumpet is being blown? And what is going to be used to resurrect or bring forth the un-Godly from the grave? Let me amplify on this a bit. Remember when our Lord went to Bethany and raised Lazarus from the dead in John 11? When Martha comes out to meet the Lord she essentially says; "if only you had been here my brother would not have died." Our Lord says that Lazarus will live, and Martha replies; "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;" If I apply the thought that the un-Godly are risen after the chosen, I distort my thoughts on what is righteous and what is evil. It skews my whole take on scripture. Another example is Ac 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven. Every reference I have seen in the Bible tells me that this refers to judgment. Why would these two angels tell saints of God that they would see "this same Jesus" coming back in the same fashion?

As for chapter 5 of 1Thessalonians the use of the word thief is quite striking. If you look at the use of the word throughout the New Testament it invokes a dark gloomy setting into the picture. The word makes me think of destruction. It makes me think of judgment.

Now to 2Thessalonians 2:6-8:

Let me first say that if someone tells me that they are coming to my house now I don't sit and wonder, "does this mean now, tomorrow or a week from now." I believe what the person told me; they are coming to my house now. This led me to look at the use of the word in this passage. As you probably well know it is the word noon. It refers to a point in time of which can mean in the future or at present. So I looked at the scripture and how Paul was using it. It seems to me that in verse 6 he is using it to speak of the point in time that the epistle was written to the Thessalonians. I believe that the word is used in the same way in verse 7. With this being said, I believe it may be referring to the emperor. If this is the case, then the commentators/preachers of old pointed to the pope as the anti-Christ. I strongly believe this to be the case, not as one person say as, Fred Jones or such, but as the system.

Maranatha,
Rodney

 

Firedome: Brother Trotter, ... You wrote:
"Ed is a very intelligent guy. He knows the Lord,
and he knows His word."

Firedome: "I never said otherwise."

Actually, Brother Trotter would have been
more correct had he said: "Ed is a fairly intelligent ... "
Anyway, did we come to discuss Ed's IQ or
God's plan for the future?
(that is a retorical question, the answer is "God's
plan for the future")

Back in 1979-1980 I was studying for a Master's
Degree (one of two Master degree's i never finished)
at the Oklahoma University School of Continuing Education.
It was a free-form course where basicly you pick your
own subject and under the guidance of a factuly
member do your papers. A couple of weeks in a genric
type class finish up the course. I was studying
those who comment on the future. Well, there seem to
be three major views of the future
(and this makes a real good outline for a sermon,
if you happen to be a paster. Everybody who doesn't
die today or get raptured today has an interest
in their future)

1. Optimistic human view
2. Pessimistic human view
3. God's view

1. the optimistic human view teaches that due to
improvement in technology the world will get better
and better an more people will get more enjoyment
out of life.

2. the pessimistic human view teaches that due
to the same improvement in technology the world
will get more and more hellish until we all blow
ourselves to kingdom come

3. God's view is the REAL "kingdom come"

(on #3 you preachers can insert yourfavorite eschatology
and talk about that. Don't forget to insert an
evangelistic sermon in there, eschatology has many
beautiful evangelistic callings. In fact, i suspect all
the 1/3 of the Bible that is eschatological is there
because it is evangelistic!

About 1990 or so the posties were telling me that
nowhere in the Revelation is any "rapture" mentioned.
Well, i found it one day: It is Revelation 4:1
for the "taking of John into heaven" to see the
future and record the Revelation is a type of
the rapture.

About 2003 or so the posties were telling me that
nowhere does Jesus say anything about the "rapture".
Wouldn't He have said something?
I found it. In the Matthew account of the Mount
Olivet Discourse (MOD):

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-20

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:21-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-20

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:21-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes not only the
immediate time before 70AD when the
AOD = abomination of desolation happened
(Matthe 24:15-2) but also all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
So if you want to study the period from
the Day of Pentacost to the Pretribulation Rapture
then study Matthew 24:4-14.

 

GREETINGS!! Well, at least a couple of you have taken a "stab" at Mt. 11 (I don't believe anybody tried 12:41-42?). It isn't that I have any problem understanding the words of Jesus (literally!) - my problem is how you find various different final judgments in "the judgment," or "the day of judgment" where lost and saved, OT and NT, are all present. In other words, no problem with Scripture, but with some theology (or "theory-ology," in some cases.)

Dispensationsalism seems to insist on a "literal" reading of Rev. 20 (still in my Bible too!), but cannot abide "literal" readings of the words of our Lord in a literal book of history like John or Matthew, it seems.

Re the "thief coming" in I Ths. 5 - please note carefully who is surprised and overtaken, and who is not. It isn't a surprise to the saved!

As to a study of "kai," I did have the privilege of teaching Greek for several years, and I believe "and," also "also," or even "even" was one of the first words we studied. (Of course, that was a few years ago, and memory does lapse!)

And one more little tidbit to chew on while I'm gone off to preach in a Bible conference - How many trumpets will there be after the last one?
(Hint: read I Cor. 15:52-58 and Rev. 11:15-19.)

Wishing all of you all His best however He chooses to end all of this - RCB - Ro. 8:28

 

R. Charles Blair: "How many trumpets will there be after the last one?"

Let me see, in synagogues around the world each
feast of trumpets three trumpets are blown
in this order:

1. the first trumpet
2. the last trumpet
3. the great trumpet

The Temple was destroyed in 70AD.
2003 (last day of trumpets) minus 70 = 1,933 years.
There are more than 20,000 synagouges now, less
in 70AD. Say an average of 1,000 synagogues each
year.

1,000 * 1,933 = 1,933,000 trumpets blown
SO FAR (well, alright SHOFAR ) after
the first last trumpet.

Hello, please don't try to understand your Bible
without using your dictionary. Remember, the
Bible is inerrant, the dictionary has errors in it.

During the physical Millennial Reign of Jesus on
the physical Throne of David, these trumpet shall
still be blown. Only there will be lots of
synagogues, say 50,000.

50,000 x 1,000 x 3 = 150,000,000 trumpets
blown after the last trumpet of Revelation.
Of course, archangels blowing trumpets and
mortal humans blowing trumpets are two different
things.



R. Charles Blair: "And one more little tidbit to chew on while I'm gone off to preach in a Bible conference - ... "

And may God bless your Bible conference
preaching and your other ministries. Amen.

[ February 14, 2004, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

Ed,

Your comment on trumpet, does not make sense to me. You use tooooooooooo much logical and flaw.

You seems not give the specific answer on the trumpet with a verse.

Many pretribbers do not believe 'trumpet' of Matt 24:31 is a rapture refers to 1 Thess. 4:17. But you does. Interesting.

Most pretribbers do not agree with your intepret on Matt 24:31 is rapture.

I do agree with you on Matt 24:31 is rapture, but I do not agree with you that you saying, Matt 24:31 is 'pretrib' rapture. Christ does not saying the rapture will be occur before Tribulation.

Often, anywhere in the Bible saying Christ is come back after tribulation and Antichrist's reign. Every pretribbers include you know that. However, many pretribbers include you saying second advent is not include rapture.

The Bible often saying rapture is include at Christ's coming. Early Christians understood Bible teaching that the gathering together of the saints will be at Christ's coming.

Even, every early Christians know the only one last trumpet will be blow at the second advent. Because they believed what the Bible saying so.

I ask you please answer the very specific answer, how many trumpets will be occur after the last trump of 1 Cor. 15:52?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!