Pre-trib questions

OldRegular, this has been explained to you several times already, but I suppose we should match your stubbornness with our patients.

Certainly it can be shown that no man can look on the face of the Glory of God; but someone has created a strawman in your mind in this instance.

God does not come to rule and reign on earth during the Millennial for God is Spirit. (Jn 4:24)
The Lord Jesus Christ comes physically to rule and reign.

Lets revisit a verse that even you provided:
Revelation 19:15 (King James Version)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

It says He treadeth with fierceness and wrath, not Glory. No where in the passage does it say anything about Jesus coming in the Glory of God.
Again this is only a strawman some man created, you read it from him, and now it is stuck in your mind.
Sometimes we simply should just read the Bible for ourselves and not follow the teachings of men.

Now if you don't believe in the coming Millennial Reign, that's fine; but the best way to disprove this teaching is with proper scriptural interpretation, not with a strawman.

It seems you, as do many, feel we are in the Millennial Kingdom now, being ruled and reigned "spiritually" by Christ from Heaven.
I see this as raising several problems you must correct somehow.
1. The physical aspect of the Millennium as described in the OT.
2. Equating Jesus being seated on the right hand of God with the throne of David.
3. Satan being the prince of this present world. Does one really think that little of the Lord that He would let Satan be the prince of His Kingdom?
4. Scripture says "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the Kingdom, however you would have us in the Kingdom now while it is pretty plain we are "flesh and blood".

1 Corinthians 15:50 (King James Version)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

OldRegular it would be a good thing to rectify these apparent discrepancies in your private theology before you throw stones and strawmen at others.

 

Hi Old Regular.

Of course, I'll attempt to explain it (your question), not explain away.

It is difficult to present it in a way that might not be taken as offensive, and even before salvation I was taught to show respect to my elders (how much more should we, being in Christ!)

Proof-texting can wrest scripture to make a position for just about any theology the wickedness of man's heart can create.

For example, I have debating with "certain" that believe man will become "a god".

This doctrine contradicts the whole of scripture's teaching which is: "There is only ONE TRUE GOD."

Would you agree? (Also, I am not likening our current debate with that one, it is set forth as an example only. Theirs [men becoming gods] is what I would consider outright heresy and demon doctrine.)

Scripture does teach that the Lord will come back physically to this earth in many passages, and those who are on earth will (by reason of proximity) be in the presence of God (the Son).

But, I see the point you are driving at, and it is a valid, scriptural teaching that mortal man cannot enter the presence of God in Heaven.

Get into a space ship, travel for millions of years, and you (mortal man) will be no closer to entering Heaven than when you left. God's Heaven is a spiritual realm which mortal man cannot enter.

They may glimpse into it, but enter it in their physical, mortal bodies, I would say no.

But the question at hand is this: You are making the M.K. Heaven, and this is not so.

When Jesus returns (God the Son, in glory), He is still dealing with the current world (in the M.K., different, and assuming a "type" of pre-fall condition), not the "New Heaven and New Earth."

If you are not familiar with the kingdom which we call the millennial kingdom, I will be glad to present the scripture that indicates this blessed time...if you will seriously look at it.

What say you?

God bless.

 

You might try reading Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I believe that even dispensationalists will concede that this is a description of the return of Jesus Christ to earth.

If that doesn't make you happy read:

Revelation 19:11-16
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Now some will argue that this is not a picture of the return of Jesus Christ in the glory of the Godhead but they would be wrong.

 

woof, woof, giggle, giggle.
Just don't match OR with patients from the OR, or the isolation ward.

We'll miss the guy a lot if he catches those diseases fatally.

giggle, giggle, woof, woof.

 

But I would disagree with this last statement:

The return of Christ at the end of the tribulation and His presence in the M.K. is not the arrival of the Godhead.

While Col. 2:9 states-For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily...

This does not imply that man will not be able to come into His presence.

He comes to man.

What we are discussing is mortal man going to Him.

Man will in the eternal state (the New Heaven and New Earth) come into His presence in the fulness of glory, but this takes place (I believe) after the M.K.

Gotta go, O.R.,

God bless.

 

Darrell C

You are consistent in your inconsistency! I have been discussing the presence of mortal man living in the so-called millennial kingdom in the presence of Jesus Christ who has returned in the full glory of the Godhead ad shown in Matthew 24:30.

Colossians 2:9 says nothing about the Glory of the Godhead. Jesus Christ had to lay aside HIS Glory in the incarnation!

 

Some pretribulationist, premillennist feel it is describing a catching out of Jewish believers at a mid-point of the Tribulation so the wedding in Heaven can be furnished with guests.
But all that is mostly likely better left for a different discussion, at a different time, with different folks.

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

OldRegular, a guy's just gotta luv' ya, you are almost as predictable as the romanist I have visited with on the web.
I though you might get a laugh out of that tidbit.

 

Hi Old Regular.

Matt. 24:30 speaks of Christ returning in glory...not in the fulness of the Godhead.

Col. 2:9 states in Him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily. How does make it impossible for Christ to return and be among mortal man?

Zechariah 14:1-9 shows Christ returning in the Day of the Lord (v.1), and His feet will stand on the mount of Olives.

I believe this will occur at the end of the tribulation.

Compare this passage with Matt. 24, there is a striking similarity.

God bless.

 

Darell C

We are just talking past each other!

 

Hi Old Regular.

Okay, then lets back up a little.

Why do you feel (believe) that there will be no millennial kingdom?

God bless.

 

I don't see any teaching of a millennial kingdom in Scripture. I had asked previously for Scripture showing this millennial kingdom in the event I had missed it but got no response.

 

Hi Old Regular.

I think we were sidetracked, but, I also think that Revelation 20 was offered. If not, here it is, I would be curious on your take.

I will post these verses, for your response.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, [B]and shall reign with him a thousand years.[/B]

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Hi again Old Regular,

Please know I am not posting these with the assumption you are not aware of them, but for the reason of asking what you do with them.

I talked with one person who spiritualized them, and thought Satan was currently bound...

What do you make of this passage?

It seems clear that those of v. 4 are from the tribulation, which Jesus states to be future in Matthew 24.

Anyway, I would be curious to hear your take on these verses.

God bless.

 

Hi Old Regular.

A few more verses concerning the earthly kingdom to come, which I believe to be the millennial kingdom.

Isaiah 11:1-11 (King James Version)

Isaiah 11
1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.


In this I see a reversal to a more pre-fall state (v.6)

Joel 3:9-21 (King James Version)

9Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.


Notice the kingdom that follows the Day of the Lord.


I will list the next one:

Zechariah 14 (King James Version)

Zechariah 14

Tribulation
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Second Coming

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Millennial Kingdom

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Tribulation

12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Millennial Kingdom

16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.


Here are a few to ponder.

God bless.

 

I believe that Revelation 20:1-10 is a recapitulation of the first 19 chapters of the Book of Revelation.

Note that what John sees are souls, not resurrected bodies. I realize that the word soul is used elsewhere in Scripture to indicate mortal man but I believe that the context here demands that the souls represent the dead Saints in heaven.

Also, ask your self what was the First Resurrection and who has part in the First Resurrection. The first and only resurrection to date is that of Jesus Christ. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are the true believers. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the earnest of our resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23, KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Also Scripture tells us that Satan is already defeated or bound!

Hebrews 2:14, KJV
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Matthew 12:25-29
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

This is not to say that Satan is still not active. It means that his power is more limited now than before the Incarnation. He is no longer able to do what he did before.

Note that Verse 4 states:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If you take this literally then only the "tribulation Saints" are ruling with Jesus Christ during this "millennial kingdom". No one has yet explained how people are saved during the so-called 7 year "great tribulation" since supposedly the Church and Holy Spirit are no longer on earth.

What has happened to all the Saints that were raptured out?

 

Darrell C

I am not ignoring your post #75. I have just had other things to do. Will get to it soon. in the meantime I am going to post some remarks on apocalyptic language that you should consider.

Ray Frank Robbins, a former professor at the New Orleans Baptist Seminary, describes apocalyptic literature, as follows:

We need to keep in mind the difference between the prophetic and the apocalyptic view of history. This will help us to interpret, I think, what the writer is saying. The prophetic view of history was that God and people work together. God and people work together to bring history to an end, to a goal. This was the prophetic view that we find in the former prophets. The Hebrews called the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings, the former prophets. In these books God and His people are represented as working together to bring history to its desired end. After the return from exile, and especially during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes [175-163 BC] it looked like the more godly, the more righteous the people were, the less they succeeded and the more they suffered. And so, there grew up a different view of history. This was known as the apocalyptic view. This view held that the world would become so evil and corrupt that God would intervene in history from without. He would break into history from without and would accomplish His purpose dramatically without the help of man. Now these two views of history were different in emphasis. The writer of Revelation combines the apocalyptic and the prophetic views.

I believe that a number of books in the Old Testament contain apocalyptic language. Consider how the Apostle Peter discusses the words of the Prophet Joel in Acts 2:14-21 and the discussion by James of the words of the Prophet Amos 9:11 in Acts 15:13-18.

Philip Edgcumbe Hughes in his commentary on the Book of Revelation writes specifcally, though eloquently, of the apocalyptic language used in Revelation as follows [Introduction, page 7ff].

The title The Apocalypse by which this book is also known means simply [from its Greek original] ‘The Unveiling’ or ‘The Revelation’, and its significance is explained in the opening sentence of the book. The literary form or genre is that which is classified as Apocalyptic, and in this respect it is unique among the books of the New Testament. An apocalyptic writing discloses mysteries, generally with respect to the future - mysteries the import of which is sometimes plainly interpreted, but which frequently remain veiled in enigmatic figures and symbols. This holds good for the book of Revelation. [The visions of Ezekiel and Daniel are examples of apocalyptic writing in the Old Testament.]

The use of symbolism is a distinctive mark of apocalyptic literature. It is not surprising, therefore, that symbolism has an important role in Revelation, and in a serious work of this nature this is far from being just a conventional device or custom. There is a need for symbolism because the reality of the scenes revealed and recorded is transcendental in character. Vistas of eternity and infinity cannot be fully described by our human language which is finite and bound by time. But human language is our only medium for setting down and passing on disclosures of the transcendental realm; and so the seer must do his best to communicate what he has seen to others by means of analogical approximations and images which suggest and point beyond themselves to realities that far exceed all that can be said. The Lamb, who is so much the central figure in these visions, portrays the incarnate Son with reference to his offering up of himself as a substitutionary sacrifice to redeem sinful men and bring them back to God. Moreover, because of the symbolical character of the language, it is not incongruous or contradictory for the Lamb to be called the Lion of the tribe of Judah, for this designation declares the majestic power and supreme authority of the Son in the glory to which he has ascended. The whiteness of the robes of the redeemed signifies both the purgation of their sinfulness through the atoning sacrifice of the Son and also their conformity to his spotless purity in the glory for which they are destined. The surpassing beauty of the eternal realities witnessed by the Apostle is indicated by resorting to the inferior lustre of the lovely things of this present world, such as gold and precious stones and pellucid crystal.

There are similar books [or parts of books] in the Old Testament, notably Daniel and Ezekiel. Matthew 24-25, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are similar writings in the New Testament.

 

Hi Old Regular.

I would just ask this...

Who are they that come with Jesus when He returns?

Revelation 19:11-14 (King James Version)

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

If the saints return with Him, it is possible that among those are raptured saints as well.

Not saying this is conclusive Old Regular, just presenting scripture that shows saints returning with Christ.

Concerning post #75, its not necessary to respond to everything (that gets tiresome at times): I would prefer just to converse little by little.

God bless.

 

Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, "until" the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The Bride may very well return with Jesus at the Glorious Appearing, as this passage could suggest she might come forth from her "placed prepared" by Jesus during the Church Age. (And I know of no more information given by the scripture of her on that subject other than her presence inside "The Fathers house", New Jerusalem. Perhaps she will be bringing up the rear in observation of her BrideGrooms Glorious Appearance to the world.) But the main company of saints that will accompany him will be the tribulation saints.

Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are the individuals that John saw in chapter six as souls under the altar, where at that time they were told they had to rest (in that state) for a little season until others like them (fellowservants and brothers) had to be killed like they were should be fulfilled.

Here they are standing before the throne, clothed with robes, with palms in their hands. The former has been completed, and the new sight of them suggests they have been resurrected, ready to return to the earth with Jesus at the time appointed. Jesus will set up his earthly kingdom (the millennium) and they will "live and reign" with him a thousand years while satan is confined to his prison in chains until the end of the millennium.