Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Dec 22, 2008.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just:BangHead: :BangHead:
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    :BangHead: yes you are just :BangHead:

    Try to ignore the only one on the board talking anything logical &/or Biblical with you at:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=7

    What is the Biblical definition of the 'Messianic Kingdom' that you either (according to whim):
    1. don't believe in
    2. believe is now (as the Millennial Kingdom)

    The term I like is Millennial Messianic Kingdom. But nowhere in the Bible does it say that. Where in the Bible does it talk about being 'reformed'? Where in the Bible does it talk about being 'Presbyterian'?

    What is a 'tribulation'? -- Answer with Translation/Version, edition, book, chapter, verse - please & thank you.

    Your first assignment is to define and give an example of each meaning of 'and' used in the Bible (many of the meanings 'and' in the Bible are repeated in other places. Feel free to use different Bibles and Dictionaries in your assignment.

    - Thank you Elder Brother OldRegular for your consideration of my request.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Ed! Ed!

    You did not answer the question. Any other dispensationalist out there willing to try?
     
  4. MB

    MB
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    What does the Lord return with in this verse;
    1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    If the Lord returns with all His saints then the rapture is a separate event.
    MB
     
  5. OldRegular

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    Who is Paul addressing when he makes this statement, Christians or unbelievers? He is obviously addressing Christians telling them Jesus Christ will stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness at His coming. So there are still Christians on earth at His return.
     
  6. Plain Old Bill

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    Do you think that nobody will get saved after the rapture occurs? A good book to read is Revelation God's Word for the Biblically Inept, by Daymond R. Duck. Simple ,clear, easy to follow,straight forward, and scriptural as well as easy to understand.
     
    #6 Plain Old Bill, Dec 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2008
  7. OldRegular

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    I assume the question is for me. There will be no pre trib rapture or any earthly millennium. When Jesus Christ returns He will bring all things to their conclusion.
     
  8. Plain Old Bill

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    Let me guess you also believe in theistic evolution and you are a calvinist?
     
  9. Martin

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    ==In regards to the pretribulation rapture, why? What does it matter? Is it really worth fussing over? What matters is that Christ's sheep are following Him, that we are living for the Lord, then we will be rapture ready come what may (1Jn 3:2-3). I use to argue over these matters but no longer. They only serve as a unnecessary points of division. Godly men and women are on both sides of this debate, and I can and do fellowship happily with them both. Personally I hold to the pre-trib. view (LK 21:36). If you disagree with me about it, thats fine with me. I am not going to debate the matter. When we get to heaven, and learn the final answer to the question, I will just hunt you down and say "told you so" :jesus: .

    As for the earthly reign of Christ, I think there is plenty of evidence for that. We can look to Revelation 20:5-7, Zechariah 14:9, etc. But again I am not sure that it is worth dividing over. I could probably provide more passages for this point but it has been some time since I sat down and studied this, so I don't recall all the passages. However I think the total witness of Scripture does lean to the idea that Christ will reign on this earth, before the eternal state, for a period of time.

    Have a Merry Christmas!
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    Plain Old Biil
    Your dispensational tendancies are showing, or should I say shining, through. You think everyone who does not believe the Darby fable is a liberal.

    However, out of the goodness of my heart, I will respond. I hold to the doctrines of the old Baptist Fathers: that is the Sovereignty of God in the Salvation of his elect [Romans 8:28; Ephesians 1, 2], sometimes called the Doctrines of Grace and the general resurrection and judgment [John 5:28, 29]. ]If you don't believe that they taught this just look at the old Baptist Confessions.] I am not a calvinist since Calvin believed in infant baptism which I reject.

    Again you show your Darbyism by assuming I believe in theistic evolution. To set your mind at rest I believe that the Triune God is the creator of all that exists and he did not require help from anyone.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    I am glad you recognize that the issue is not debatable. Incidentally you took Luke 21:36 out of context :rolleyes: which is not good.

    34. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
     
  12. MB

    MB
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    I disagree that Luke 21:36 is taken out of context because it says the same in text as it does out of it. You just can't stand the idea someone besides your self could be right.
    MB
     
  13. Jim1999

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    The secret rapture is not fiction. Shucks, it is right there on page 1269 of the Scofield Reference Bible!!!!!

    Cheers,

    Jim:tonofbricks:
     
  14. StefanM

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    There are many Calvinistic dispensationalists, too.
     
  15. Marcia

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    It's Christmas Eve, Jim. Be nice!! :love2:
     
  16. Jim1999

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    I was trying....very trying..Oh, this English language can be so trying. Why wasn't I born in the neverland!

    Cheers, and blessed Christmas and New Year,

    Trying Jim
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    I think lots of Jews will be saved (close enough to say all Israel was saved) but few gentiles will be saved. The rapture2 is about taking the mostly Gentile Church AGE elect saints out of this world so that Israel can be saved in the might and power of the Lord.
     
  18. HankD

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    OK so below is the passage of Scripture from whence comes the “rapture” doctrine.

    Now, there can be no doubt that there will be a “rapture” unless to meet the Lord in the air” means something different than what is the raw meaning of the words (a possibility, but slim) as in a figure of speech.

    The question is the timing:

    1 Thessalonians 5
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    The word “rapture” actually comes from the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible:This is because some of the earliest modern work on the “rapture” (16th century) was done by a Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera (which doesn’t make it necessarily wrong).

    Roman Catholic teaching of the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, the Hypostatic Union, etc., is completely compatible with Baptist Trinitarian doctrine. OK, I know I’m going to get flak over this one.

    Here is the passage:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Latin
    1 Thessalonians 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

    Rapiemur is Future Indicative Passive, 1st person plural of the Latin word rapio (to be snatched away or caught up).

    It translates the Greek word harpagasometha Future Indicative Passive 1st person plural of the Greek word harpazo

    In the next note are some other verses which use this Greek root which the Vulgate translates into rapio or rapto

    HankD
     
  19. OldRegular

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    HankD

    None of the Scripture you quoted definitively support a pre trib snatching away of the Church. Only those indoctrinated into dispensational eschatology can find a pre trib rapture in Scripture.
     
  20. HankD

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    Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (Lat. Rapiut) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

    2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up (Lat. Raptum) into the third heaven.

    2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up (Lat. Raptus) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


    Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (Lat. Raptus) unto God, and to his throne.

    While 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not definitively say that just before the Great Tribulation which comes before the thousand year reign of Christ on earth the saints will be snatched away into heaven.

    But it does strongly suggest that the “snatching away” is indeed the case.
    But when? And to where? “in the air” does not mean “into heaven” but it might be the gathering place (in the air) and then onward to the place He has promised to prepare for us in His father’s house, or an undisclosed place.

    I have read that “in the air” was a figure of speech which meant “unknown” akin to shadow boxing an unknown entity.

    e.g.
    1 Corinthians 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

    Or speaking to some unknown person:

    1 Corinthians 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

    Whatever it means (in the atmosphere – seems most likely) or into heaven or some undisclosed place, it provides an escape from

    ..the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night…

    Followed by the “sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape”. (But we will who are caught up with Him in the air).

    For he then says
    But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    Not “terrify yourselves” or “beat each up verbally” but comfort and edify one another with these words.

    We are the children of God and we will be caught up "in the air" to meet the Lord and the saints He brings with Him to escape this "sudden destruction".


    Now concerning “the Trump of God which will sound when this happens?

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    And in another place:

    1 Corinthians 15
    51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at thelast trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Admittedly the “trumpet” is problematic if it is identified with the trumpets of the Revelation. But it does not have to be. It is the “last” trumpet that the redeemed will hear and not necessarily related to the trumpets concerning the wrath of the Lamb as we are not the children of wrath and we are not appointed unto wrath.

    HankD
     
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