PRE-TRIB

Bob would say that we are raptured up to heaven as we see in 1Thess 4 as part of what John calls the "first resurrection" in Rev 20 - the resurrection that starts the 1000 years. John says "blessed and holy" is the one that takes part in the first resurrection. Paul says that it is "the resurrection of the Dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4. They are one and the same so that makes it a post-trib rapture in my view.

But common to both views is --- 1000 years is really 1000 years. (Some of our Catholic bretheren have difficulty with that).

And the return of Christ is - premillenial - (some of our Catholic bretheren have been having trouble with that as well).

In Christ,

Bob

 

When Jesus was born of the virgin Mary was His first coming.

I Thessalonians 4:17 speaks of Christ coming for His church. At this soon coming event He only comes to the cloud level to snatch His people home to the Judgment Seat of Christ and Heaven. I Corinthians 15 speaks of 'the twinkling of the eye' and yet it is not a quiet event. The Lord will shout, and the archangel will speak and the trumpet of God will sound.

The Second Coming will be different from the aforementioned homegathering of God's people in the second paragraph. The Second Coming will come at the close of the Great Tribulation and is found in Revelation 19:11. At this event Jesus will set His feet down in Israel as clearly indicated in Zechariah 14:4, 9, 17.

In paragraph one and three Jesus came and will become a resident here on the earth. At the rapture {paragraph two} His entrance into our sphere is merely a mega-second of time.

 

Carson,
Your exegesis of Mt. 24 and 25 are excellent. If one understands Mt. 24,25, the second coming of Christ is easy to understand.

 

Comforting one another and not being appointed to wrath do not prove pre-trib. We are so comfortable now, an escape from any tribulation would be a "comfort" to us, but to Christians already under persecution, the tribulation would signal the beginning of the end of the evil age. "Not appointed to wrath" is contrasted to "obtaining salvation", and refers to salvation, and saints going through tribulation are still not appointed to God's "wrath".

As others have mentioned, "falling away" is not a rapture, but apostasy.

 

Satan is restrained now? Just because WE in this society are not persecuted? Satan works by other means besides persecution. In fact, when he saw that persecution glorified God and strengthened the Church, he simply changed his tactic, and threw wealth and power at the Church. this corrupted her, she now would persecute the true saints, etc, and become aprt of the world. The epitome of this was then deciding that since they now had all this worldly power and wealth, Christ must have "returned" in the person of the leaders, and that His physical Kingdom had begun. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it actually fulfilled much of the prophecies, including the falling away, people claiming Christ had returned, by their pernicious ways many will be led astray, etc. Plus, let's not forget all the Christians who are still persecuted harshly. How can anyone think THIS is Christ's milennial Kingdom?

I believe the prophecies are dual. There were typical fulfillments back then, but will still be antetypical fulfillments in the future. The amplications show it is even a bit more than simply two fulfillments, but rather graduating stages of increasing deception, wars, disasters, etc.

 

But there are ways to effectively deny Him, even while appearing to acknowledge Him. Eclecticism appears to acknowledge Him, but when they say He is the same as all of the other "avatars" or whatever, they have just denied the Father and Son (because all religion and gods are the same anyway to them) And "antichrist" is being used more loosely at that point. He addresses the common view of antichrist as a single person at the end of the age, and is telling us, "but don't focus so exclusively on him. There is a lot of deception that will occur before than, and anyone who denies Christ now, is just as false and dangerous to your soul as the final deceiver".

 

No. You’ve just described the pre-tribulation rapture. Remember in your first post you asked about 2 Thess 2:3?

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As I mentioned before, “the day” in this verse is the day of the Lord. It comes as “a thief in the night” (1 Thess 5:2) and starts with the rapture of the Church. So this verse read plainly states that the rapture will not occur until after the man of sin is revealed.

The man of sin is not revealed until he signs a covenant with Israel (Dan 9:27). This starts the tribulation period. The Church is raptured AFTER this point. Therefore there cannot be a PRE-tribulation rapture.

The pre-tribulation rapture is a very popular view of the end times. It’s the view that I personally favor. Like most, I would like to leave before things get bad for Christians in my neck of the woods. But like Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, I say to the Father “not my will, but yours be done”.

So unless there is an alternative interpretation of 2 Thess 2:3, the Bible clearly rules out a pre-tribulation rapture.

Ed

 

The coming of Christ that we see in Rev 19 before the 1000 years of Rev 20 is "real" as we would all agree. And as Christ stated in John 14 - when He comes - He takes us to the place He went to prepare for us.

The coming down out of heaven of God's city that we see in Rev 21 is "real" just as is the great white thrown judgment in Rev 20 -- ALL of which follow the 1000 years.

The saints are raised in the "First Resurrection" according to John "Holy and blessed are those who have part in the First Resurrection - over THESE the 2nd death has no power".

Paul says that the "Dead in Christ" are those who are raised at Christ's return - and they are raptured up to meet Him - and taken to the place in heaven to which Christ said He would take us in John 14.

What is even more instructive - is that the "desolate" earth sequence described in the OT is "real" where OT authors say "I looked on the earth and behold there was no man". Several places in scripture describe a desolate earth - cities burned and no humans - just dead bodies from one end of the earth to the other.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What you're not realizing is that thove visions of desolation are temporary. Whatever unregenerate are left are hiding in the rocks, and then the saints return with Christ to rule with Him. They have to have people to rule over, and the rebellion at the end of the Millennium is before the resurrection of the wicked.

 

Hi Eric,

You asked, "Satan is restrained now?"

Yes, that is what St. Paul tells us in 2 Thess 2:6. I'm just following what Scripture teaches us.

I believe the prophecies are dual. There were typical fulfillments back then, but will still be antetypical fulfillments in the future.

The 8 signs and 5 amplifications Jesus gave his disciples specifically answered their question with regard to the destruction of the Temple. Why should we then come to the conclusion that Jesus was really giving us prophecy that would have multiple fulfillments throughout the ages if he was answering the specific question as to the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple?

 

Hmmm - maybe because of the "details" in the text.

The "details" like the fact that ALL tribes of the earth shall mourn . And the same "ALL" that mourn are the ALL that "SEE Him coming in the clouds of the sky" Matt 24:29..

Maybe it is because Christ tells us that this is a direct parrallel to the destruction of the earth by the flood when ALL were destroyed.

Maybe it is because of the way Christ describes his coming - saying that if anyone argues that "He has come but you missed it" because He came in some local area - they are liars - for His coming will be visible like the lightning from one end of heaven to the next. And as John says "Every Eye shall see Him".

You know "all the details" already mentioned from the Word of God that you keep choosing to ignore (and no wonder - your view "needs" you to ignore the Bible on these points).

But as was said before- "That's only the Bible"'

In Christ,

Bob

 

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

In Christ,

Bob

 

ALL tribes of the earth shall mourn.

The Greek that you have as "earth" is better translated as "land" [ge], and Jesus is pulling this portion of his response from Zech 12:12.

The tribes of the land [the Israelites in Jerusalem for Passover] certainly did mourn when they were slaughtered by the Romans one by one.

And the same "ALL" that mourn are the ALL that "SEE Him coming in the clouds of the sky" Matt 24:29..

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 13:10.13, which had its immediate fulfillment in what Isaiah was predicting: the imminent defeat of the Babylonian Empire by Medo-Persia. Heavenly chaos was used by OT prophets to predict the downfall of pagan kingdoms. See Ez 32:7-8; Joel 2:10.31; Amos 8:9. Jesus, by quoting Isaiah in this instance, is predicting the fall of the political establishment of his day - the Jewish Sanhedrin - by means of the Romans.

Maybe it is because Christ tells us that this is a direct parrallel to the destruction of the earth by the flood when ALL were destroyed.

Christ's parallel with the Flood answers the second half of the disciples' question, which was when the end of the age would be. Luke separates these two questions, which are combined in one sentence by Matthew. See Luke 21:5-33 and Luke 17:22-37.

 

There are in fact "no examples" in the NT or OT of "All the tribes of the city of Jerusalem" -- or even "All the Tribes of the land of Judah".

It is hard to tell how you are going to sustain your proposal.

In Christ,

Bob

 

And the same "ALL" that mourn are the ALL that "SEE Him coming in the clouds of the sky" Matt 24:29..

Isaiah 13 presents "details" that take it far beyond the local land disputes and territorial battles with Babylon as we see from a careful review of it --

Its details are "not" fulfilled in what happens with Babylon - rather - Babylonian captivity and then the promised freedom of Jeremiah - become a "type" of the ultimate - NT - promise of Christ about the 2nd coming.

And this is "obvious" since Christ is speaking long after the restoration from Babylonian captivity - along with the obvious fact that the "details" in Isaiah 13 don't get fulfilled until the 2nd coming.

The signs in the heavens and the death of "all mankind" and the fact that he "sees no man" and the fact that all the cities of the earth are in ruins - are never said to have been "fulfilled" in any event of the past. Rather - they are future, the details trustworthy, literal - true.

For example -- Ez 32

And then the "virgin birth" is simply a prediction that a future "reformer" and messiah would have a noble birth from parents that were not idol worshippers -- but not "really" born of a "virgin" as IF the OT "detail" was correct - right?

No??

Ok - then lets "trust the details" and stick with the Word of God as "reliable" And "true" EVEN in the "details".

Hmmm I hear echoes of Genesis 1-2:3 coming back.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yes, unlike the pre-tribbers who assume it is the Holy Spirit who is "restrained", this could be describing the devil. (but still, we are not told) But we can't assume this is describing the total binding of Satan into the abyss (total inactivity) during the Millennium. The final evil of the age may be restained now, but Satan is doing many other things in the mean time. There is no comparison to the Milleniun described in the Bible where Christ visibly rules with His saints, and all evil is put away. I don't see how people can think this age is it.

 

The church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four. The theme of the Great Tribulation does start in the sixth chapter and goes through chapter eighteen.

What purpose would the Lord have in putting His beloved bride through the unprecidented Great Tribulation? The Bridegroom usually loves and protects His bride rather than taking her life away from her.

The post-Tribulation theory is a very weak and untenable position to take in eschatology. Christ is preparing His bride for the "Marriage of the Lamb." [Revelation 19:7-9]