Pre-tribulation rapture

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ByGracethroughFaith, Sep 4, 2007.

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  1. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
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    Pre-tribulation rapture

    God has two peoples, one that makes His power known, (Israel-Descendents of Jacob), and one that makes His mercy known (Spiritual Israel-The Church-Of the seed of Abraham). The very existence of the nation of Israel today, along with the existence of Spiritual Israel is the greatest visible proof of this. This re-emergence of Israel as a nation after 19 centuries proves that God is not finished with Israel just yet. Now there are some people who belonged to both, like David and Paul, there are others who only belonged to one, like King Ahab (Israel) or Cornelius (Spiritual Israel). God manifests His physical power on earth via Israel, and God manifests His spiritual power on earth through Spiritual Israel. Be sure never to confuse the two. Temporal blessing was promised to Israel for obedience, whereas grace in trial and tribulation is the promise to Spiritual Israel.

    The tribulation period is a period of God’s wrath. Spiritual Israel is never appointed unto God’s wrath (1 Th 5:9), the wrath of man yes, the chastisement of God yes, but the wrath of God no! The tribulation is not meant to be a time of chastisement, it is to be a time where the wrath of God is unleashed, and yet this is even done in love. This would be what is considered the final threshing of man to get the very last kernels of wheat, for God will lose none that are His. When God unfolds His wrath, there is no need for Him to inflict it on those that are already His, simply because they are ALREADY His. The great threshing is to reach those who have refused the offer of grace in a time of ease. Nothing hardens like prosperity, so nothing softens like judgment. Having been softened by the wooing of the Saviour, the tribulation for the already saved serves no purpose, the Lord has already sifted them before the tribulation and found them to be wheat. We also know that God delivers the godly and reserves the unjust for the day of judgment (2 Pet 2:9). The martyrs had many trials and yet through them suffered no wrath from God, but only His mercies (Isa 57:1), even in burning to death their pain was abated. It is those who have rejected God and especially the mercy of His Son (Heb 10:28-29) that He has reserved His wrath for; where the pain is so severe they wish to die and yet are unable to (Rev 9:6), or the fear so great they must hide (Rev 6:15-16).

    Before going further, I must address the partial rapture view. It is erroneous, and the very statement connotes a works based righteousness. Those whom Christ delivers, He delivers in full, not just the better ones, not just the over achievers, He delivers ALL of them that are His. If at any point the deliverance is by any other means than the blood of Christ then you can know the doctrine is false. These types of schemes are devised as a means to attempt to deal with the ‘vomitable unsaved pretenders’ without having to say they are not saved. Since Christ said it, we ought not have any problem with owning up to that fact either. These VUP’s are a haughty bunch, who give Christ much lip service, but none to worry, He will not own them as His.

    Who are these wretches you might ask? Apostates, and just who are apostates?

    People think of apostasy of a person turning apostate, and losing their salvation, not so. Apostasy is a thorough working of error throughout a whole generation, so much so that those who think they know God wouldn’t even recognize Him. When Christ came the first time, the visible Jewish church did not recognize Him, and even crucified the Lord of Glory; at the time of Christ’s second coming the visible gentile church as a whole, will be in the same condition. Sure there will be the odd ones saved here and there, just like Nicodemus from the Jewish church, but the apostasy will have worked through so thoroughly that people will be entirely deceived. Because of this deception God pulls the bearing of the gospel from the visible Gentile church, and puts it back in the hands of the descendents of Jacob (Rev 7:3-8) for Daniel’s seventieth week.

    It is fine to talk about things in general, but specifics are usually where the rubber hits the road. I am going to use the Superbowl for an example. It is a heathen abomination that desecrates the Lord’s Day, and yet many who profess to be Christ’s have no higher desires for their soul that day than to partake of this abomination. Is it possible for these people to be saved? Possibly, but at least we know one thing, that whatever their lips say, there is no thirst for Christ in their hearts. And that is definitely not a good thing. I could go on, but suffice to say, apostasy works through the whole just like leaven, and leaves no area untouched.

    That apostasy is here today. Unbelievers invaded the seminaries in the early 1900’s, and started producing pastors with doubts of various kinds, in turn these pastors passed these doubts on to the congregations, and ran the cycle a couple times until now we have a visible church of which the major majority are entirely devoid of the Spirit. They talk of God’s blessing them in their homes, and of fine ‘Christian experiences’, but as a whole their desires are not right. I ask you, during the day, all day, where do your thoughts gravitate to? Summer vacations, TV programs, sports, new car, etc; or do they gravitate to holy things like the person and work of Christ, communion with him through prayer, and the slaying of sin in yourself? You can be sure if it is the former that the apostasy has worked its way through you.

    People in this apostate condition, though professing Christ are yet without Him, they are unsaved. These people will enter the tribulation. Let me be clear here, not one of those who are saved will enter the tribulation period, only the apostates. Though others will be saved during this time, the apostates having had access to the gospel through God’s word, and yet explained it away, will in all likelihood not have a second chance because of the strong delusion of God (2 The 2:10-12).

    The rider on the white horse in Rev 6:2 is the imitation christ more commonly known as the Antichrist. As an imitator, he does just that, comes in the guise of peace (white horse), and yet war is in his heart (bow). The imitation christ will draw many after himself, setting up the one world government/church/commercial system. At the beginning, this system will attempt to imitate the setting up of the millennial reign of Christ on earth, however mayhem in the skies from the Lord on high, will convince people that this is not the case. Through their ties with the government, the Harlot church comprised of 1 part Roman Catholicism, 1 part apostate Christianity, and 1 part other world religions, will be able to hand out the mark of the beast. To borrow a DL Moody phrase, 'I have an idea' those in the apostate Christianity will gladly receive the mark from their apostate pastor or elder where they would never have thought of receiving it from a government servant. It will be through the sleight of hand with replacement theology and conditioning by other such erroneous eschatology, that apostate Christianity will receive the mark of the beast on their foreheads in an attempt to be saved from the wrath of God (Rev 7:3-4). I figure all this will be part of the strong delusion in 2 The 2:10-12.

    I probably went too far already, but for brevity sake I had to stop here.

    BGTF
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    According to the sequence given in Matt 24 there is no pretrib rapture.

    According to the many centuries of torture and slaughter of the saints in the dark ages - it is too late to claim that the great tribulation for the church in this 2000 years of history since Christ left - did not happen.
     
  3. ByGracethroughFaith

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    Those were just small trials, nothing near great tribulation.

    You are looking for a time when 1/2 of the world's population will die by war, famine, pestilence.
    You are looking for the mark of the beast, (unless of course you hold the SDA belief that this is associated with worshipping on Sunday, if so, start another thread on that one)
    You are looking for 1/3 of the sun and moon to be darkened.
    You are looking for all the rivers to become undrinkable.
    You are looking for all the oceans to become uninhabitable.
    You are looking for the 100 pound hailstones to come.

    In short, because you are caught looking for these, you can not have the blessed hope. The Christian lives now, and has always lived with the blessed hope of Christ's any-moment return. The beauty for the Christians of this generation is that we have so many more reasons to expect His immanent return, than generations past.

    Titus 2:11-13 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope , and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Here are some good visual helps for you.
    http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/church.gif
    http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/lresurrect.gif


    BGTF
     
  4. peterotto

    peterotto
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    Ezekiel said Israel would be a nation again back when they were captive in Babylon.
    The prophecy came true back in Nehemiah and Ezra times. Not 2600 years later.

    The erroneous thinking of a Pre-trib rapture started around the same time. Do you think they are related?
     
  5. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    BGTF,

    [FONT=바탕]All of your statement is not new to me. I have noticed such explanation is quite typical to the people holding the Pretrip Rapture.[/FONT]

    Pre-tribulation rapture


    You start your argument based on the premise that God does Racial Discrimination, but the Bible says this:

    Ac 15:9
    And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    Ro 10:12
    For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him


    You misunderstand the whole nature of the Tribulation.
    Tribulation means the persecution of the Believers. If there is no persecution against Believers, it is not Tribulation.
    During the 7 years, there will be persecution throughout the period. However, the Wrath of God is poured out mainly after 3 and a half years. So, the second half is more terrible period and the Unbelievers will suffer from difficulties greatly. You didn’t analyze the difference between the first half and the second half. The first half is relatively mild, but the second half is much more horrible.


    1 Thess 5:9 means that God will preserve the Believers at the time of His Great Judgment and therefore the believers will not go to the Hell because of what the Savior Jesus did at the Cross. It doesn’t mean that Satan will not persecute the believers. God loved Job but let and allowed him be tried by Satan. Likewise it will happen to the believers too.
    2 Pet 2:9 – God has delivered His people from the tribulations all the time throughout the history, and will do it during the GT as well.
    Israel suffered the tribulation in Egypt and were delivered, even King David suffered the persecution by King Saul for many years and preserved his life by the mercy of God, Apostle Paul suffered various tribulations, danger of the Robbery, River, persecution and chastisement by Jews, Imprisonment, etc. Persecutions of the Believers are not new things at all.
    Isa 57:1 the righteous perish ( die) and are taken away by death, Isaiah didn’t direct it to the Rapture, sorry. Of course, the Rapture should not be necessarily excluded from there either. It is not the evidence of the Pretrib Rapture.



    You pre-suppose the Partial rapture based on the human works. I deny any type of Salvation by Gace+Works or Reward based on such human works. You haven’t heard about it correctly. You must realize that even at the time of Rev 7, there are Believers among them, and therefore you can read this:
    Re 7
    9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number,of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Do you want to say that those are the new believers preached by the Jews during the GT? Yes, that is the typical answer from Pretrib !
    Tell me if it is your answer, so that I may answer you !
    Don’t worry about me, but about yourself, please.

    2 Thess 2:10-12 are the unbelievers who are following the Anti-Christ. Don’t misunderstand it. Do you have the faith like this?
    Re 12:
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death


    They are holding such faith during the Tribulation! Are they novice believers at that time ?
     
  6. ByGracethroughFaith

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    Does that mean you are only expecting Christ to come once?

    Not at all.

    The earliest teaching of Pre-trib rapture that I know of, is attributed to a Baptist preacher by the name of Morgan Edwards in 1744. I believe the work of Westcott and Hort et. al. which started in the 1850's was the major contributing cause to the invasion of the seminaries by unbelievers.


    BGTF
     
  7. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    BGTF, you are in great delusion by the faithful believers. Even the faithful, born-again Christian believers make mistakes in understanding the Scriptures.

    If you read Re 6:2 and 19:11, you can find no single difference in wording the man on the white horse. Both are Jesus Christ. The interpretation is here:

    Re 6:
    2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    Ps 7:
    10 My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart. 11 God judgeth F13 the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. 12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. 13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

    Ps 64:7
    But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded.

    [FONT=바탕]Psalm, 45[/FONT]
    1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. 3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. 5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee. 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Who is this Psalm talking about? Isn’t Deity of Jesus clear there?
    [FONT=바탕]Then the interpretation is here:[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Jesus Christ won the victory at the Cross, and therefore was given the Crown, He conquered at the Cross and continue to conquer for 2000 years, carrying the Bow to shoot the arrows of words, in order to defeat the 3 other men on the horses, Power of Kings with weapons of wars, False Prophets of Deceptive religions, Poverty, disease and Death.[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Jesus Christ, after winning the victory at the Cross and being crowned, has continued His battle with 3 horse-riders, Kings, False Prophets, Poverty and Death, and continued to win the victory over them.[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]He will come as a Conqueror to rule the world with the Iron-Rod. ( Re 12: 5, 19:15), and He was crowned with many Crowns ( Re 19:12)[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Your interpretation is just a copy of what the Pretrib people are claiming.[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Try to read the Bible and try to find out where are the moment of Rapture which describes it as clearly as Re 11:11-13.[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Then try to imagine how millions of Believers are coming out of all the nations in the world after the Tribulation ( Re 7: 9-14).[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Then think about these:[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]1)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]Can it be possible that the people be saved without the Holy Spirit? NOPE![/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]2)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]If the whole church is raptured, then the Holy Spirit is taken up, right?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]3)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]If the Jews repent and accept Jesus as Messiah, then the Re-inauguration of Holy Spirit as we had Pentecost. Then why would He be taken up?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]4)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]The Gospel is preached thru the foolishness of preaching ( 1 Cor 1:21), there should have been some initiators like the church had the disciples of Jesus.If the whole church is taken up, then who can start the preaching the Gospel by the Holy Spirit?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]5)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]It has taken many decades for the early church preach the Gospel to the Roman Empire, taking lots of pains. How could the Jews preach the Gospel so quickly during the Tribulation? Oh ! by Internet ? Why was Apostle Paul and disciples so stupid spending so much time to convert the people as the latter day Jews do?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]6)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]Read here:[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]RE 16: [/FONT]11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
    [FONT=바탕]During the GT, we can hardly expect any new believers as they won’t repent. Read the whole Revelation. Many times Bible says the unbelievers do no repent. Then where are the millions, millions Believers coming from ?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]7)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]Read Re 12:[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Verse 5 – man-child was born. I hope you would not deny this is Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]The Woman is protected in the wilderness until the End-times.[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Then isn’t this talking about the whole 2000 years? So, the Revelation is not the story of the end-times, but the whole NT period, right?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]8)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]What is the meaning of Remnant of Seed of Woman in ch 12:17? Seed means that Seed has the same nature as the Woman, then the Remnant means that they had the same nature before the disappearance of the Woman, which means the continuation of the Battle, right? Where is the Woman gone?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]9)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]Have you ever compared Re 11 with Zechariah 4 ? You can find the exactly Same wordings for Candlesticks, Olive Trees, 2 Witnesses. Who are they ? Elijah and Moses? I know the typical interpretations ![/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]10)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]How come there are Remnants seeing the Ascension of the 2 witnesses into the heaven? ( Read Re 11:11-13)[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]11)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]If the logic is that God is merciful and therefore prevent the Believers from the persecution, then why does He allow the new believers to suffer the great pains during the GT?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]12)[/FONT] [FONT=바탕]The overall Rapture must be a great scene of the whole world, where is that scene described? I pointed out Re 11:11-13. Can anyone show such for the whole world?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]The quick understanding can start from chapter 12, which describes the period of Jesus Birth until the Rapture of the church. [/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]The key to understand it is the meaning of 1260 days which is 3 and a half years which is the same length of period as Jesus preached the Gospel.[/FONT]
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    [FONT=바탕]I have many Jewish friends and most of them are Messianic.[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Some of them are 75% Jews, some are 50% Jews, some are only 25% Jews, and there are some Gentile Proselytes in the messianic congregations.[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Who are going to be left at the time of Rapture? None of Messianic Jews? Then only the unbelieving Jews will be left, and they will repent and accept Lord Jesus? Can anyone accept the Gospel without the preachers? Why didn’t God use such way before, instead of saying this?[/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕][/FONT]
    [FONT=바탕]Romans 10[/FONT]
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    So, you may be working hard to prove Paul was wrong !


    How many percentage of Blood can discriminate Jews from Gentiles?
     
  9. peterotto

    peterotto
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    You need to read
    Acts chapter 1:11
    They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."


    Jesus will come again, just the same way He has been taken to heaven (read verse above). BGTF could you tell me in what way will Jesus return? Will He be riding a horse?
     
  10. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
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    I have read it, but just wasn't sure if you understood what the idea of dual fulfillment was all about.

    Short answers first.

    He will come in two parts, once in the air, and then He will return on a horse to set up His kingdom.


    BGTF

    Eliyayu, I will get back to you tonight.
     
  11. peterotto

    peterotto
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    There are prophecies that have dual/multiple fulfillment. I have no issues with those because the Bible clearly states so. Please show me in Scripture, those prophecies are to be dual fulfilled.
    If it doesn't state it clearly, then why not say it is to be fulfilled 7 times? After all, 7 seven is the number for perfection.
     
  12. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
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    Zech 12-14 is the major prophecy on this account. ‘The day of the Lord’ is spoken of many times in the Old Testament and is mainly attributed to Christ’s second coming, look for the phrase, and then look into the context. Zech 14:1 references the time, Zech 14:2 directly mentions the division of Jerusalem, yet to occur.

    Compare it to Isa 13, and Zephaniah, there are also many others but these ones are quite obvious.

    Now you tell me, what is the difference between 'the day of Christ', and 'the day of the Lord'?


    BGTF
     
  13. peterotto

    peterotto
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    Nowhere in Zech 12-14 did I read a prophecy will be fulfilled twice or seven times.

    I never studied the difference between 'the day of the Lord'........so I can't comment at the moment.

    What I did find when Read Zech 13:8 "It will come about in all the land,"
    Declares the LORD,
    "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
    But the third will be left in it.

    That is 2/3rds or 66%. You said earlier 50% of the inhabitants will perish. Maybe the 66% pertains only to israel. Which makes me wonder.......Do you support jews to move back to Israel when they will only have a 33% chance of survival compared to 50% outside the land of israel?
     
  14. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
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    The 50% was only in two particular judgments (1/3 and 1/4). When all the other judgments are taken into account, the Jews in Israel only losing 2/3 will be relatively safe compared to the Gentile world losing more than that.

    It doesn't really matter what I support, it's going to happen with or without my support.


    BGTF

    Late Edit: FYI The day of Christ refers to the rapture of the saints, the day of the Lord generally refers to the time after that.
     
    #14 ByGracethroughFaith, Sep 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2007
  15. peterotto

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    Would you please tell us when?
     
  16. ByGracethroughFaith

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    Let’s deal with this first premise.
    Your assumption is that because there is no difference in the salvation of a Jew or a Gentile that there is no difference at all. The verse below indicates the same thing, and yet God does show us some difference.

    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Jew and Greek, men and women are all equal in regards to salvation and yet are different. Would you agree that men are allowed to preach and women are not allowed to as per 1 Tim 2:11-15? If so, do you consider that sexism? Do you find it sexist that men can’t have children and women can? Probably not. There are differences.

    It is not about the Jew being exalted or debased. It is about God and making His power and Glory known, through whomsoever He chooses. He has decided during the tribulation period that He will make His power and Glory known through the descendents of Jacob.

    We are just getting started, it is too early to make that conclusion.
    1 Kings 20:11….Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off.

    I agree for the most part, and there will be believers there, they will just be new ones, but since they don’t get a whole life of tribulation like I do, it has been condensed and intensified for them.

    The wrath of God is first mentioned in Rev 6:17 as ‘the wrath of the Lamb’. This is in the first 3 ½ years. I do agree that it gets worse after that, but in the first 3 ½ years at least ¼ of the population of the earth is killed, and faces the wrath of God.

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    The wrath of God is revealed against ungodliness and unrighteousness, it is not ever mentioned as being revealed on His children.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    God’s wrath is always mentioned with reference to the unsaved, never to the saved. This is why those saved during the tribulation period will not live very long, they are not there for wrath, but mainly to be allowed an opportunity to test their newfound faith with the ultimate test.

    If I misunderstand, then what qualifications does one have to have to be included in the partial rapture? What qualifications are lacking in those who are not included in the partial rapture? Are they all washed in the Blood of the Lamb?

    Yes, these are new believers.

    BGTF
     
  17. BobRyan

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    The 50 million or so saints slaughtere in the many-centuries long dark ages persecution is what is described in Matt 24 prior to the coming of Christ. "The Great Tribulation".

    The seven last plagues in Rev 16 are not part of that and do not last for "many centuries".

    Matt 24 shows that this happens AFTER the great tribulation ends. The many centuries event of the dark ages has ended.

    Trying to rework Matt 24 or Rev 12 into a first century prediction that "the Christian church will not be perscuted"
    would have proven to be false in the dark ages alone. Let alone pagan Rome's persecution of the saints.

    No text states that the saints will be removed from earth before the Matt 24 and Rev 19 event of Christ's appearing.

    Christ said in John 14 "If I go away and prepare a place for you... I will come again" this is the promise that we see fulfilled in Matt 24, in Rev 19 and in 1Cor 15.

    In 1thess 4 we see that the saints "Rise FIRST" in Rev 20 we see that this is called "The First resurrection" and over these the 2nd death (the one that would come later after the 1000 years) has no power.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Sep 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2007
  18. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
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    Bob
    You are going back and forth between preterist and futurist, are you partial preterist?

    No one said anything about Christians not being persecuted, but only that they will not bear the wrath of God. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs again, and tell me if you believe they experienced the wrath of God, or not. Some gave signals that they didn't even feel pain while being burned to death. That's a mercy of God, not His wrath.

    Like the Trinity, this doctrine is meant to be formulated from an understanding of the person of God as found in scripture as a whole, however there are some pretty good verses on the topic.

    Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    1 Thess 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    This refers to the Holy Spirit who is the comforter to the saved. The promise of 'not leaving us comfortless' means the saved will not be without the comforter. If the comforter is missing, so are the saved.

    No disagreement here, other than the timing of that first resurrection.

    BGTF
     
  19. EdSutton

    EdSutton
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    All I'll say is - "When that trumpet blows, I'm outta' here!"
    >
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    "Dead or Alive!" :wavey:

    Ed
     
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    There is not so much new in your statement and therefore I would integrate the points:

    1) There is no racial discrimination by God between jews and Gentiles, Jews and Greeks etc.

    2) The Wrath of God always directs toward the unbelievers, as you mentioned in Romans 1.
    However, as I said, the Great Tribulation is not the Wrath of God against the Believers. As we read Re 12, the Dragon is expelled from the heaven and he persecutes the woman ( Re 12:13), and therefore the trouble starts from there ! It is not the Wrath of God. You misunderstood quite a lot, as many do.

    3) By what does God discriminate for the Partial Rapture?
    He doesn't discriminate the people, but their faith discriminates themselves and results in very different status. Remember Elijah. There were 7,000 believers who never knelt down to Baal, preserved by God. They were true believers. However, did they enjoy the Rapture as Elijah did? Nope! Only Elijah who fought the Idolatry was raptured.
    God accepts the people based on their Faith. Read Re 12:11 ( they loved not their lives unto the death) and compare the man in 1 Cor 5 ( especially v 5) who committed the fornication. Do you think there is no Christian believer( who is truly born again) who commits such fornication even today? In your logic, even such carnal believers ( as mentioned in 1 Cor 2:14-3:3) will be raptured while the new believers who love not their lives unto death, enduring the extremely painful persecution should continue to suffer the persecution by the Anti-Christ, right?

    4) In your theory, the new believers are the Second Class believers because they were saved during the Tribulation, while the fornicators, adulterous believers will be raptured because they are saved always once they have been saved, right?
    But, you must carefully notice that the believers have the extremely strong faith, if you read various chapters of 7, 12, 13-17.
    They were arrayed in white robes, washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb ( 7:14). Are they new believers saved during the short period?
    Whyd doesn't God use such miraculous method to save billions of people in a short time?

    5) If you read ch 12, it tells you the birth and the rapture of Jesus Christ ( v 5), then you see the coming of Jesus Christ in ch 19. Also, ch 12 explains the total period of 2000 years since the birth of Son of God thru the disappearance of the Woman, until the Remnants of the woman are challenged by the Dragon who have the testimony of Jesus. Where is the verse describing the biggest event of the Church history, the Rapture of the whole church ?
    Where would you point out the verses of describing the Rapture of the Church ? Revelation describes the whole history after the ascension of Jesus(ch 12) until His second coming ( ch 19). Where is the Rapture?

    6) When does the Second coming of the Holys Spirit take place, after the Rapture of the Church? We know the Pentecost, then when would be the Second Pentecost so that hundreds of millions of new believers may be saved by the EXPLOSIVE preaching? Paul and so many preachers exerted their lives to preach the Gospel but they may have gained only a few thousand if they had been given only 7 years. Were they stupid and lazy because the End time preachers may save millions of people in a minute?
    After Jesus departed this world, disciples and many believers were still remaining, and they preached the Gospel after receiving the Holy Spirit. Who are going to remain on this world after the Rapture so that they may start the Re-evangelization after receiving the Holy Spirit?
    The Rapture of the whole church means the departure of the Holy Spirit.
    If the Holy Spirit has to come again, then why should He depart?
    If the Holy Spirit remains on the Earth, then how will He start the work? Does Holy Spirit find the Believers for Himself without any believers on this Earth? Are people saved while they watch TV or watching the Football game?

    7)As for Isaiah 57:1-, I would add some more explanation.
    The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart, merciful men are taken away, 2 none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come, He shall enter into peace; they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

    This is a general description of the protection of the believers. It doesn't start with " At the end of the days" or " In the latter days" or " After the Israel returns from the nations and is settled in their own land which the Lord has given them". Therefore it is not addressed to the Rapture. But it is the general preservation of the Believers before the persecution.
    For example, some believers may have died before the Crusade which killed many Albigene believers, or many Aanbaptists may have died before the persecution.
    In general, this verse shows the mercy of God protecting the Believers, but it doesn't tell us the Rapture, but their rest in the bed, each one walking in the uprightness.
    Does "Perish" mean the Rapture? I don't think so.

    I personally prayed God to help me understand the Revelation, then He showed me ch 12 as the starting point.
    Istead of relying on the others interpretation, try to kneel down for yourself, and read the Bible with the attitude of praying to God.
    Re 12 tells many things from the birth of Jesus until the end-times.
    Re 6 is the Introductory Revelation which describes many things. You can find the Birth of Jesus in ch 12 while you can notice the punishment of Kings, Greatmen, Rich men by the Wrath of God, and even the Heaven is rolled away in ch 6. So, ch 6 is just the overview of the whole picture while ch 12 states the 2000 years history shortly there.

    So, the Revelation is NOT written in Time sequence.
    The True believers are protected against all the disasters like Quakes by God, because the Wrath of God is poured out toward the unbelievers.
    12 tribes doesn't necessarily mean the Israelites as we can read Re 21:12-21 and 21:24, the nations of them which are saved....
    Is the Kingdom of God only for the Israelites ( Jews) ? 12 gates, 12 gems, they are all for the believers, not only for the Jews.

    The Rapture may be limited to 144K but it is not necessarily 144,000, but they are the 2 witnesses which are essential for the Truth as the 2 wtinesses are enough for the Truth. Zech 4:14 - These are the 2 anointed ones who stand by the Lord on the whole Earth.
    In other words, 2 witnesses are the True and Faithful Believers on the whole Earth, standing by the Lord.
    They will be raptured ( Re 11:11-13), and the Enemies will observe it, and the Remnants will give glory to God.
    Thereafter there will be big disasters like Earthquakes, 7,000( perfect number) were killed, then the Third woe follows.
    2 witnesses were protected from the Woe by God, but even the Remnants will be protected by the grace of God. So, the believers will be protected from the Wrath of God anyway.

    You'd better read the Bible more before you present your argument.
     
    #20 Eliyahu, Sep 6, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2007
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