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Featured Preceding Grace & Divine Providence - the Truth, “within a hairs breadth of Calvinism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    Perhaps we should ask Dr. R.C. Sproul to answer Benjamin since he appears to be so much more philosophically-minded than us commoners. I will readily admit that knowing all of the fine points of logic isn't my strong suit, but I also know that you cannot twist the Scripture every which way so as to indicate that (a) every man is born with a little light within himself that just needs to be fanned into flame with a little help from God, or (b) when the Bible says we were dead in sins it doesn't really mean that.

    Perhaps my case was different and I was in a "deader" and "darker" state than others, but I don't think so.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Benjamin
    you posted the link in post 13...thats why

    we are interested in scripture.....you know....the truth.

    looks like someone is disturbed



    I answered in the other thread, then reading in this thread I clicked on the link YOU SUPPLIED in post 13.....this is where it lead to, so I put it here also.

    You seem confused.....about many things:thumbs:

    What do you mean by this unwholesome speech???
     
    #22 Iconoclast, Jun 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2013
  3. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Icon, anyone with half a brain can click on the link in post 13 and see that you have not posted there! They can also see how obnoxious you are in pursuing to argue here about that.
     
  4. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    You know what, it isn’t so much about understand all the logical principles with me as it is about having some simple ethics geared to draw out the truth in debate. I would be glad to explain as best I could how I come to logical conclusions if one didn’t see it, but in reality it isn’t that difficult to see and people here merely avoid it for the sake of meaningless argument or avoid altogether working toward coming to any conclusions which may go against them through childish tactics and that is a very poor goal to have on a debate board.

    As per Dr. R.C. Sproul, he’d probably try to pull out his Elitist card with me right off the bat and I’d call him out on that fallacy in a heartbeat~! After that he’d have a lot of explaining to do about how his views logically add up and I’d inescapably take him the mat on every issue that came up or call him on his avoidance of them. ;) If he could demonstrate logically true conclusions that proved his Determinist System to be true while at the same time not violating the true attributes of God, His righteous judgment, and His loving plan of salvation for all His creatures who He designed with a mind to reason and held accountable thereby I would honestly be willing to reconsider my position. But, I can tell you that I have thought these things through and I wouldn’t be holding my breath for any such result
    .
    (a) every man is born with a little light within himself that just needs to be fanned into flame with a little help from God, (Strawman, I’d say everyman that is born into the world will have sufficient light shined upon them by which they will be held accountable through God’s righteous judgment for their response to that light - hence Prevenient Grace.) or (b) when the Bible says we were dead in sins it doesn't really mean that. (Mean what??? Question beggar! :smilewinkgrin:)
     
    #24 Benjamin, Jun 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2013
  5. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Therein lies the whole entire faulty premise from which their theology stems -- the wrong view of God and man.

    You're 'dead' on. Pun intended! :laugh:
     
  6. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Meaningless rhetoric, once again demonstrating the truth about the typical contributions from Calvinists on this board who claim to argue logically in debate.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    providentially that thread has been closed.You can respond here ....if you feel up to it:type::type:
     
  8. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Just checked it, still open.:rolleyes: You serious needed a second chance anyway to try to address that reasoning of yours and show how in any way it could be concluded as logically true and not false: I’ll give you clue where you need begin your argument - first you need to start by actually using your two premises that the argument is about…good luck…focus man, focus, you can do this!!!
    :thumbs:
     
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  10. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    How are you any less elitist than he is?
     
  11. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    #31 Benjamin, Jun 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2013
  12. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    The one who does, is.

    I'd leave my card in my wallet where it belongs.

    BTW, you might note, you brought up the appeal to authority issue, I didn't. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Closed Thread.....means it is closed....it is locked up.That is logical....

    now if you could respond to my post....:thumbs:
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hello Benjamin, thanks for presenting a view of biblical doctrine. Lets go over it, point by point and see how it stands up to the light of scripture.

    This verse Romans 10:9 does point to our action of receiving, accepting and welcoming the gospel. It does not support the idea that enabling grace, either irresistible or Prevenient, is needed. It assumes a fallen man, dead in his sins, is unable to seek God and trust in Christ, but no evidence for that belief is offered.

    Again the unstated assumption is the fall resulted in total spiritual inability that needs to be overridden by “prevenient grace.”

    Certainly divine love from before creation surrounds all humanity. But to turn love, an abiding concern for the welfare of humankind, into enabling grace is to redefine the meaning of love.

    Simply a restatement of the need for prevenient grace without any scriptural support. God did indeed “initiate salvation through His grace” He revealed our situation, for all have sinned and the wages of sin is death, and provided the opportunity for “justifying grace” via the cross of Christ.

    Here we see that to “draw” means according to the doctrine, enabling by prevenient grace. Again a redefinition of the meaning of draw. Next, scripture does indeed say God draws us by His loviningkindness, but this describes being persuaded by knowledge that God loves us, so we respond with love for God. Enablement is nowhere in sight. Next Philippians 2:12-13 refers to our conversion (born anew) and the work of the Holy Spirit within us to conform us to the image of Christ. To apply this verse to our fallen condition is a misapplication. Finally, yes we love Him because He first loved us. This does not mention God’s love enables us via prevenient grace, i.e. eisegesis not exegesis.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Rather than "Total Spiritual Inability" scripture teaches the Fall resulted in our being conceived in a separated from God spiritual state, a sinful state, corrupted and predisposed to sin. In this fallen state, spiritually dead meaning unable to do any works to obtain the righteousness of God, we have only limited spiritual ability. We cannot understand some spiritual things, spiritual meat, because to understand spiritual meat, we need to be indwelt with the Spirit of God. If we look at 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 we see that the natural man (fallen and unregenerate) cannot understand the "things of the Spirit of God." To add "all" so it reads cannot understand "all things of the Spirit of God" would be a reasonable inference looking at this verse in isolation. However if we read the passage, we see in verse 3:1 where Paul had to speak to the babes in Christ as "men of flesh" teaching men of flesh can understand the milk, which refers to the fundamental things of the gospel. So in context, the "things of the Spirit of God" should be understood to refer to spiritual meat only, thus "some things of the Spirit of God is the correct view of the verse.
     
  16. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Hello again Van, thanks for the reply but you'll soon see we have a problem here about you wanting to go over this pint by point from your perspective.

    Romans 10:9 demonstrates a condition that calls for a response from the person. I assume no such thing that a person is so dead that he is unable to do what the Bible says he must do! If you’re saying can person can seek God as so often commanded I agree with you, but if you’re saying this happens without the influences of God (His Prevenient Grace) in all the world and to all humankind within it by which He initiates (Providentially) the creatures volitional response to seek Him, I would have to disagree with you.

    I’m not into Pelagianistic beliefs and have no need to attempt to fit that man can seek God completely apart from His influences in the world. I have my way of dealing with this assumption and you have yours. I differ from the Deterministic view concerning the ability to respond volitionally and hold to libertarian free will in the matter, but other than that, yes, we/I am within a hair’s breadth of agreeing with Calvinism on a view of Divine Sovereignty (control in the world), only I see it and defend it as Providential controlled grace not Deterministic controlled grace (read post #6) – BUT as per your view I differ greatly from any doctrines that would proclaim man looks for salvation completely apart from God’s sufficient influences or from God first enabling him.
    I assume no such thing as total spiritual inability, again, I am a card carrying LFWer. What you’re calling an “unstated assumption” concerns your reasoning that the spirit of man must apparently be “overridden” if he is influenced by “prevenient grace” by any way? –this influence and the following response goes to the glory and credit of God, period. Otherwise a doctrine has serious problems about the creature earning his own way - the Open Theist typical has a view of LFW to be so apart from God concerning the issues of: - IF Divine Foreknowledge, then Determinism - that their view of LFW attempts to completely wrap itself into a view of the creature being so free he can act completely independently from God.


    I know where you’re coming from with these questions. I’ve had this discussion with both, you and HT concerning the Molinist view and how I view these things (DF and LFW) work together – you out of hand object my view simply because it disagrees wioth the conclusions OT comes to - I tried to point out the problems of OT thinking – either void DF or Determinism – and I’m fully aware your view is closely associated with a view of free will that goes overboard. My opinion of your evasion of the issues I raised while you refused coming to conclusions which would condemn Open Theism in those debates is not very high – and I’m not going down that circular road again with you here.

    NOW LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR, the topic of the thread is Prevenient Grace in contrast to Deterministic Grace and Providential Sovereignty in contrast to Deterministic Sovereignty - NOT – the views associated with Open Theism on these issues!
    I disagree, it may redefine OTs necessary view of creaturely freedoms, including a freedom to love first, which goes beyond orthodoxy in my opinion, but I do not neglect that we love God because he loved us first – hence Prevenient Grace and my view which will hold that we freely return love to God. YOU don't believe this can be done without the OT perspective - I see that it can, whether you are willing to accept my view as an alternative to OT or not!
    I see you simply and adamantly attempting to object to the creature being enabled in any sense because of your view of overboard absolute freedom of the will which falls backs to Open Theism thoughts for the reasons already mentioned. I really don’t have the time to break down all your inconsistencies, untwist your scriptural interpretations and pin them back to OT thought along with the pitfalls therein to demonstrate to you why your interpretations fail and my line up much better. Once more, my interest here is not to contrast Prevenient Grace to some twisted OT view of Justifying Grace.

    Peace
     
    #36 Benjamin, Jun 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2013
  17. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Icon, GO - to - the - post - where - the - link - is - and - click - on - it - for - A BIG SURPRISE!!!

    :laugh:
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Ben, I did not see much in the way of a response, other than to say you disagree with Open Theism. I did not address exhaustive determinism in my post, only prevenient grace.

    1) I agreed God acts first and provides the grace of revealing Himself. So to say my position disregards the need for God's action is a mischaracterization.

    2) My view is not LFW, but that fallen men have limited spiritual ability which is able to respond, i.e receive, accept and welcome, the milk of the gospel.

    3) The point with Romans 10:9 was not that it pointed away from Total Spiritual Inability, the point was it does not support the concept of Prevenient Grace. PG is nowhere to be found in the verse.

    4) No I am not saying we respond without the influences of God, including His word, and the examples of believers sharing His ministry. Yes, I am saying Prevenient grace, the supernatural altering of a fallen person to enable them to respond to the gospel, is found nowhere in scripture.

    5) I object to Prevenient Grace because I cannot find it in scripture. You cited four verses and in my opinion none mentioned nor suggested Prevenient Grace.

    6) All Arminians, those pushing the doctrine of Prevenient Grace, are Open Theists, they say God did not cause us to reject or accept the gospel, He just enable us to respond either way we choose. That is Open Theism, our future is not fixed.

    7) I did not suggest we love God before He loves us, I clearly stated the opposite view.

    8) I do not object to supernatural enablement because I hold some other doctrine, I object because when I studied the topic, I found no evidence in scripture for the doctrine. It is man-made in my opinion.

    9) To restate my view, Revelatory Grace, the milk of the gospel is sufficient when coupled with believers filled with the Spirit as witnesses, those who till the ground, plant the seed, and water, to open the hearts of those who are "of My sheep."
     
    #38 Van, Jun 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2013
  19. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Here you make my point, you think no other view exists that "logically" deal with the false doctrines of Determinism other than Open Theism. You are wrong, we been here, and you best just get it into your head that I've wasted enough time trying to deal with this desperate belief of yours.

    If I wanted to debate with locked-in OTs I go to another board and try to find some that wanted to discuss it rationally.
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Post the link where you responded...I do not see it anywhere....is this hide and seek now? Surely there must be a "debate fallacy for hiding a post:thumbs:
     
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