Predestinated = OSAS

This is from page 3. You could have easily missed it because it was to Elo and then I added for you also in the end.

And then I asked you again on page 4...

Now Elo answered..." yes, stevers, I believe that I will not lose my salvation. I am secure, bought and paid for "

Yet Elo takes the side against OSAS for any other brother ot sister in Christ. I don't know what you would call that!

Elo believes that he is predestinated to "stay" saved(OSAS), but others are not. I guess that would be "cherry picking" as you say, like "subgroups" . This means predestinated applies to some believers but not all believers, just like when you say that Hebrews 6 applies only to some believers, not all believers. This is very poor bible scholarship at best.

So how about you Bob? Does the above verses include you?

God Bless!

ps. Elo does not "get it" concerning the understanding that sins are not the focus of the judgment seat of Christ. Sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, paid in full! Since you agree with Elo then you must not get it either.

 

This is very nice, but I am speaking right now about a specific passage of scripture and not all scripture in general. Are you one of the "us" spoken of in the passage I gave?

Again, what rabbit trail are you trying to lay? I asked you specifically about predestinated "us".

"So yes"? So nothing! Are YOU BOBRYAN one of the "us" spoken of in the passage?

Tell you what. I will GLADLY respond just as soon as you answer my question...Are you one of the predestinated spoken of in the passages about this topic?

God Bless!

 

Ok, forgive me and bear with me a moment. I don't know if you are deliberately advoiding the question or that I am just not stating it clearly. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is just me.

"Everybody in the church"(I take this to mean those sitting in a congregation of believers) is NOT saved/predestinated(or maybe you do mean all of the saved, correct me if I am wrong), ok?

Your answer is basically saying that the passage is speaking "TO everybody" who reads it or hears it. This is NOT answering my very pointed question which is pointed directly towards you.

Let me ask it another way one more time. Are YOU ONE OF THE PREDESTINATED SPOKEN OF in these passages? I am NOT asking if the passages are SPEAKING TO YOU just as they are speaking to anybody who reads or hears them.

Here are the only possible answers;

a) Yes, I HAVE BEEN predestinanted by God, the passages speak OF ME.

b) No, I HAVE NOT BEEN predestinated by God, the passages DO NOT speak OF ME.

c) I don't know.

Do you see the difference between being spoken TO and being spoken OF?

There you go...a,b or c and then we can move forward.

I appologize for not being more specific three post ago. I hope this last post clarifies my question. I just want you to be sure just what question you are answering for me. It is a small detail but it presents a VERY BIG difference.

God Bless!

 

It is as I thought. You do not understand of whom the passages are speaking of .

This would conclude then that you do not know if you are saved. This reveals much to me about why you believe in the doctrines you hold.

I do not mean to offend you, however it appears that you possess a "religion" rather than a "relationship" with a person Jesus Christ.

If you cannot see that the passages I posted are emphatically clear that they speak only of the saved then it may very well be true that you have not yet been born of God.

Now before you get all bent out of shape and go off on a rant about what I have said, please take a moment to reflect on yourself and ask yourself if you truly know Jesus Christ is in you . Being born again is the first step and only way to have scripture taught to you by the Holy Ghost. I speak this way to you only to provoke you to the truth and not to anger.

I find it next to impossible for someone who studies scripture and is born again to conclude that the passages about predestination are speaking of everybody who reads or hears them.

In conclusion Bob, if you are not one of those spoken of in the presdestinated passages then you are not saved. Not spoken to , spoken of !

God Bless! I pray God reveals the truth unto you.

ps(edit) You must understand that "everybody" is not predestinated for salvation. This throws out your answer. The predestinated are ONLY the born of God. The passage is speaking ONLY OF the saved-not everybody.

[ April 07, 2006, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: steaver ]

 

Where are you Claudia?? Still waiting for your replies. Are you one of the predestinated spoken of?

God Bless!

 

So far, Elo and Bob have been the only two anti-OSAS to make an attempt at dealing with the passages which speak of the predestinated of God, chosen before the foundation of the world to be conformed unto the immage of Jesus Christ and confirmed unto the end.

Elo was brave enough to answer with truth, agreeing that the passage speaks of him and he will never lose his salvation. The odd part about this is that it has not changed his mind about other born of God believers not losing their salvation. This is erroniously applying scripture selectively when the passage does not call for any "subgrouping" at all.

Bob's final answer is that the passage is speaking of everybody who reads it. This would have to include the lost as well as the saved. This would then mean that salvation is by the reading of the predestinated passages of scripture rather than by grace ye have been saved through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If Daffy Duck could read he could be eternally saved.

This thread has revealed the errors behind the anti-OSAS movement, but only by two participants. Where are all of the other anti-OSAS folks?

Claudia sure likes to propagandize against OSAS but has repeatedly declined to deal with this thread. I am sure many others have listened in but stayed out for fear of personally dealing with the inconvenient topic. They are content to just go on believing in error rather than facing the pointed truth about their salvation.

This thread by far has been one of the most enlightening for me. Elo and Bob have been solid opponents for the anti-OSAS movement and i will give them credit that they do mostly wrestle with the meat of the scripture. It is understandable how one could error in interpretation in many of the meatier passages, however, these predestinated passages has really set them off balance and I suspect it is why only two has chosen to give an attempt at answering the tough questions.

I give these two credit for that. At least they tried!

If anyone just joining us wants to read through this thread and respond I would be most grateful!

God Bless!

 

Well let's see, should I re-word the questions and then answer them or should I just go away and avoid answering them or maybe I should lay down a rabbit trail in hopes that you forget about the original questions....No, I guess I will just answer them clearly since I have no problem with the harmony of the scriptures.

1) The "we" and the "us" of the text is speaking OF the SAVED ! (that wasn't to difficult that would NOT include EVERYBODY who READS the passage!)

2) The "Author" (God) apllies the concept of "endurance" to "reigning with Christ" (I thought you said this would be difficult for me?).

Now the only place "salvation" is eluded to is in verse 13. God says that even if we (the saved) are "faithless" He remains faithful! He cannot deny Himself! Those in Christ belong to Christ forever! Two become one! Therefore Jesus cannot deny Himself when it comes to the "salvation" part. Jesus can deny us "reigning priviledges", as the passage clearly states.

Did you think that this passage somehow supported the false teaching of the saved getting lost again? Sorry. It wasn't difficult to understand or answer. I just wanted you to stay on point before we moved on. By doing so I was able to have you expose your hand and show the readers that you do not understand OF WHOM the passages are speaking of.

The passage you posted is speaking OF the SAVED. NOT EVERYBODY who READS them!

And the passages I posted about the predestinated are as well!

You have demonstrated a very poor understanding of this simple truth in an attempt to protect a false doctrine. Why not just speak the truth of the matter? Which is that the predestinated passages are speaking OF the SAVED!

Dodging and re-wording and rabbit trailing ...Just answer the simple questions... like I did!

God Bless!

ps. where are all your friends on this subject? You and Elo are the only ones who attempted to deal with it. No Claudia in this thread

 

Sorry, verse 13 is not the only place salvation is eluded to. Verse 11 states it also, that if we have died with Him we will also live with Him. Endurance is about "reigning with Christ".

God Bless!