predestination can not be denied

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by scotthines, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. scotthines

    scotthines
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    romans 8:29 for THOSE GOD FOREKNEW (The elect) HE ALSO PREDESTINED to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.


    romans8:30 and THOSE HE PREDETERMINED (the elect) HE ALSO CALLED; those HE called (again the elect) He also justified;those HE justified(once more, the elect), HE also glorified

    Eph 1:5 HE PREDETERMINED US(the elect) to be adopted as his sons through JesusChrist in accordance with HIS PLESURE AND WILL(God Sovereign).

    Eph1:11 In Him we were also CHOSEN(elected), having been PREDESTINED, ACCORDING TO THE PLAN OF HIM(God Sovereign) who works out everything in conformity with the pourpose of HIS WILL (God Sovereign).

    it makes it prity hard to be saved by free will if it has already been determined, predetermined, predestined (election) ??? God's Sovereignty over man's. Gods choice over man's. Gods will over man's. God's pourpose over man's. God has already elected who he will. Good luck :thumbs:
     
  2. mcdirector

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    Hi Scott :D

    We have had quite a few threads on this topic in one form or another - if you are interested in some reading on past BB discussions.

    Bitsy
     
  3. AAA

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    Good post!

    And if HE has PREDETERMINED who will be saved then by logic it will also be the Elect are the ONLY ones that will want to call upon the name of the LORD and be saved with godly sorrow...The NON-ELECT will NOT even want to call on the name of the LORD and be saved with godly sorrow....
     
    #3 AAA, Jan 14, 2008
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  4. just-want-peace

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    You had best read ALL on the topic before deciding what God has said/done.

    Based on your position, all the following is essentially a lie, OR God is unable to fulfill His wishes.



    I used to be very dogmatic also, but age proves that all is not always as it seems; IE there CAN BE truths other than what you've accepted as final, or irrevocable!


    These are but a few verses that contridict that man has no option or part, OR that God has limited His invitation.


    *******************************************



    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
    Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

    Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

    Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
     
    #4 just-want-peace, Jan 14, 2008
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  5. pinoybaptist

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    sure it can, brother.
    anything can be denied.
    everything can be denied.
    all one has to do is to fall back on this or that Greek, or this or that translation or "source", and voila, red is blue and blue is green.
     
  6. scotthines

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    so your position is that the Bible contradicts its self????
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    no.

    all I'm saying is that as far as man is concerned, anything and everything can be denied.
     
  8. AAA

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    Good post!

    I wish that the calvinist will read these verses of the bible and pray over them...This is the reason that all gosple preachers should be preaching to all who are willing to here the gosple of JESUS Christ and perhaps they will be saved by GOD's grace...

    Can you please answer this question: What good work can you do to earn your salvation?

    Read: E;h 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5....
     
    #8 AAA, Jan 14, 2008
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  9. scotthines

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    do you think PREDESTINATION was a bad word for God to chose. Maybe He didnt mean to use that word.....I think NOT.
     
    #9 scotthines, Jan 14, 2008
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  10. pinoybaptist

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    Predestinated is the word in the Bible.
    Predestination was never used by God in the Bible. It is not found in the Bible. Do a word search.
    oh, by the way, I apologize for being so rude.
    Welcome to the Board.
     
    #10 pinoybaptist, Jan 14, 2008
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  11. Jarthur001

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    I'm with pinoybaptist on this one. It can be denied. Stick around here for a while and watch how many people deny it.

    It matters little to some that it is found in the Bible. Some do not know this, but there was a song wrote about it. The song was called...


    "50 was to deny predestination."

    Just give it a hack, Jack
    Say its not God's plan, Stan
    Think of a new ploy, Roy
    Just get yourself free will

    Hop and fus, Gus
    You don’t need to discuss much Bible
    You are the key, Lee
    And get yourself free will

    :) Watch for CD coming in march.
     
  12. donnA

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    This jumps out at me. He (God) predetermined, not man and God followed suit, but God predetermined, He made the choice, not man.
     
  13. The Archangel

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    Many people do not like the concept of election. After all, how could a loving God choose some and not others? Many will argue that it is “unbiblical” to believe in the Doctrine of Election. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    This is something to consider when people ask, “To be fair, doesn’t God have to give everyone the same chance to be saved?” He certainly did not give everyone in the Old Testament an equal chance. God chose Abraham for His good pleasure.

    Acts 13:16-17 (ESV)
    So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said:
    "Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen. [17] The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it.

    No other nations were given an opportunity to be “God’s chosen.”

    The only record we have of God choosing a nation is His choice of Israel. It is not like God went and pleaded with the Egyptians, the Amorites, the Jebusites, or the Philistines to be His nation and they refused. No, God’s sovereign choice of Abraham and, therefore, Israel, by definition excludes all other nations.

    Why, then, do so many deny predestination and election? It is clear that God chose Israel, why, then, can’t He choose His Church, His Elect?

    The Archangel
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
     
  15. Allan

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    Very few if any deny 'election' and 'predestined'. However, what IS denied is NOT 'election' and 'predestination' but the soveriegnty doctrines (per)version of of their meanings. And yes, it was done tongue in check since both sides say the same thing about the other's view.

    BTW - your analogy of "God’s sovereign choice of Abraham and, therefore, Israel, by definition excludes all other nations", would ALSO 'by defintion' exclude any individual who was not a decendant of Abraham's chosen line and thus of Isreal from being one of Gods chosen. That leaves out those Gentiles in Christ's family tree - like Rahab and Ruth for starters. Guess what - there were many others to besides those few recorded in OT and by distinction Christs family tree.

    Editted in -->> That is why God's choice for Israel to His own, does not mandate that all of that Nation (Israel) IS saved. God chose the Nation of Isreal (all people of that nation) for and to fulfil His purpose, but not that all people of that nation ARE eternally saved.

    Anyway, I'm backing out now since that is another topic for another time. Sorry. :saint:
     
    #15 Allan, Jan 15, 2008
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  16. Allan

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    “Election” refers to persons; predestination to purposes for those persons. God elects us to be saints (set-apart ones), then predestines that certain purposes in our lives shall come to pass (such as in the case of Rom 8:30 with regard to predestined being in regard to His purpose OF those He foreknew - Elect)
     
  17. Jarthur001

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    Allan,

    You think because you put it in stages or steps that it changes things. It does not. Maybe in your mind it does, but what you just said can also be said this way..

    God predestines people (sets them apart from others) for His own purpose of redeeming them and bringing glory to Him. Who decides who is in this group that is redeemed? God does.
     
  18. The Archangel

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    Allan, in your excellent post, you wrote:

    The “analogy” of God’s sovereign choice of Abraham is not, “mine,” it is found in scripture. But it does not exclude people like Rahab. Here’s why:

    Israel’s choice had a singular purpose: To bless the nations of the earth

    Genesis 12:1-3 (ESV)
    Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. [2] And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. [3] I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

    Verses two and three are a beautiful example of Hebrew parallelism. Unfortunately, the ESV could have translated par of it better (The last part of v. 3 should read: “So that in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”)


    What is clear, though, is that God’s Sovereign choice of Israel—to the exclusion of every other nation—has as its goal the salvation of the nations. So, no, it does not, by definition, exclude individuals outside of Abraham’s physical family. The Apostle Paul Writes:

    Galatians 3:7-9 (ESV)
    Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

    So, actually, God’s sovereign choice of Israel, to the exclusion of other nations, had at its goal the salvation of the Gentiles.


    The Apostle Paul argues there is a distinction between “National Israel” and “True Israel.”

    Romans 9:6-8 (ESV)
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, [7] and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

    National Israel was named for Abraham’s son Jacob (Israel), the son of Isaac. But we see further that God, even inside of National Israel, keeps for Himself a collection of True (or faithful) Israel

    1 Kings 19:18 (ESV)
    Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

    In any case, it is clear that God is doing this. He is not pleading with people to believe Him. He guarantees there will be a faithful “remnant,” even inside National Israel. This much is clear: It is God’s Sovereign choice, which, by definition, excluded other nations and those outside the chosen faithful remnant of Israel.

    Thanks for you post Allan. Many Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  19. MB

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    Did the election and predestination save any of the Jews when Christ was preaching His gospel?.
    Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    There is no denying that the Jews were the elect and being elect were also predestinated. Yet those same Jews cried out for the death of Jesus in their rejection of Him. Those same Jews who wouldn't accept Him as their messiah are lost forever in spite of their election and predestination. You are right about one thing and that is God has chosen who He will and He chose to die for the whole world. There is nothing particular in that at all. Luck doesn't exist you either are or, aren't saved.
    MB
     
  20. Jkdbuck76

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    Thanks, ScottHines.

    You've finally come along and solved the 2,000 year old debate.

    I salute you, sir!

    Sarcasm off.


    Please enjoy BB and the ongoing C vs A debate.
     
    #20 Jkdbuck76, Jan 15, 2008
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