Predestination in Christianity

um, well we exist linearly...we can move around in our creation. We have depth and substance. We can't move in and out of time or back and forth in time...God can.

the 3 dimensions are:
length
width
heighth

the fourth is:
time

We can move around and freely engage in the first three...only God can truly move around in time and engage in it beyond a linear manner.

And please, don't call me bubba...we aren't that close...

you may call me Cletus if you need

 

I had one comment to add about God predetermining what good He would do but no bad that happens --- it is the perfect expression of God's LOVE that He does only good, no evil.

Perhaps it was on another thread but I postulated that God does predestine all the good/love He will do ---- creation, mercy, salvation, BRING AN END TO BAD ultimately and daily. God loves even the lost, even His enemies, as we see that He does these things to ALL mankind.

But evil and badness are Satan's and man's fault and responsibility. Therefore, we are forced to accept the "foreknowledge" explanation of God's omniscience.

skypair

 

That would be all fine and wonderful sky....... except scripture does not agree with you.
Acts 4:
27. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28. to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

There are other scriptures that I know you are aware of where the evil men intended for harm, God meant for good.
Your view of God's omniscience is flawed sky. God is completely omniscient. He knows what you say is unknowable. You have stated before that God can not know something until it happens. Do you still hold that view?

Isaiah 45:7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

Okay, Cletus, and thanks for the explain.

 

OK, rb. I'm with you. I've seen those too.

Why do you use the term "predestined" rather than "determined?" Have you ever used the word "determined" in this way -- "I determined what had happened and reacted accordingly?"

Why do you accuse me of NOT believing the God is "completely omniscient?"

Isa 45:7 is challenging, rb. :thumbs: Don't some translations use "calamity" in place of "evil" here? Isn't it true that there are "natural" consequences of sin that include calamity and pain which are the what God uses, though He doesn't will them, to draw us back to Him?

But really -- let's work on OUR model a little. Do you really believe that God causes and creates evil?? Are you willing to say that in lieu of the all the scripture you know and considering the character and attributes of God?? "...[D]o all things" That's certainly a provocative assertion -- and biblical, obviously. Does that make God a "sinner?"

skypair

 

...and this fourth element (time) is what we as finite beings cannot grasp as it pertains to God. Where calvinism states determinism, and arminianism states total freedom, there is an element we have absolutely no clue as to how God chooses to relate to His creation. That's why I cannot accept calvinism OR arminianism. True omnipresence includes omnitemporalness...to God everything happens, without a needed sequence, both in and out of time.

 

Judging by the silence...

...of our antagonists...

I'd say we are back to the "forknowledge-predestination" as-two-separate-things model where God foreknows everything that His creation will do/cause (good and evil) but predestines/predetermines only the GOOD that He intends to do/cause.

In this way, He can clearly, at some points, appear surprised by His creatures' choices or repentant of His own good works (i.e. creation, saving the children of Israel). He can be said to "change His mind" if His creation should repent because He does not control them yet He has determined to reward the good that they choose to do (i.e. Nineveh).

Yes, it's the easiest thing in the world to just say that God predetermines everything and be done with it ---- except that means that God predetermines evil and sin and is responsible/guilty, therefore, for it.

skypair

 

Again, we must be careful to make sure that foreknowledge is not being interpreted as mere foresight. There is a difference between foreknowing and forseeing.

 

Go ahead -- what's the difference?

skypair

 

SP asked the difference between the two words .

"Foreknowledge" is an act of God's decree . The Lord determines , ordains , appoints to forelove certain individuals . The Divine appointment was made before the creation of the world . Nothing contingent is involved .

"Foreseeing" is an Arminianizing of God's Word . It only has God looking ahead and acknowledging which people would "choose the Lord of their own free will ." The choice of people is the hinge that determines their salvation . God steps in after the key is turned by mere mortals .

 

This is correct. Compare how the word is used in First Peter 1:2 and 1:20 in refering to the saved and to Christ.

(Greek Prognosis [Strong's #4268] and Proginosko [#4267]).

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1:2 KJV)

"Christ... Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1:19-20 KJV). NASB has "foreknown".

It wasn't that the Father looked down through the corridors of time and foresaw that Jesus would die for our sins. He foreknew Christ as our Saviour by divine plan, decree, ordination, appointment. There was never any question as to the purpose of Christ's coming to this earth. He was foreknown. We must be careful not to drift into Open Theism in our thinking. God isn't surprised.

 

I believe that this whole area is not as clear cut as either side claims. The verses cited here contain 3 different Greek words.

1) 1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Lexicon Results for prognōsis (Strong's G4268)

Root Word (Etymology) from G4267

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2
AV — foreknowledge 2

Other use.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Our word prognosis comes from this root.

Etymology:
Late Latin, from Greek prognōsis, literally, foreknowledge, from progignōskein to know before, from pro- + gignōskein to know — more at know
Date: 1655
1: the prospect of recovery as anticipated from the usual course of disease or peculiarities of the case 2 : forecast, prognostication

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2) Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Lexicon Results for prooraō (Strong's G4275)

Root Word (Etymology)
variant of G4308; from G4253 and G1492

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to foresee

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2

Other use:

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
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3) 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Lexicon Results for proginōskō (Strong's G4267)
Greek for G4267
Root Word (Etymology) from G4253 and G1097

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate

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Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 5
AV — foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1

Act 26:5 Which knew 4267 me 3165 from the beginning 509, if 1437 they would 2309 testify 3140 , that 3754 after 2596 the most straitest 196 sect 139 of our 2251 religion 2356 I lived 2198 a Pharisee 5330.

Rom 8:29 For 3754 whom 3739 he did foreknow 4267 , he 4309 0 also 2532 did predestinate 4309 [to be] conformed 4832 to the image 1504 of his 846 Son 5207, that 1519 he 846 might be 1511 the firstborn 4416 among 1722 many 4183 brethren 80.

Rom 11:2 God 2316 hath 683 0 not 3756 cast away 683 his 846 people 2992 which 3739 he foreknew 4267 . 2228 Wot ye 1492 not 3756 what 5101 the scripture 1124 saith 3004 of 1722 Elias 2243? how 5613 he maketh intercession 1793 to God 2316 against 2596 Israel 2474, saying 3004 ,

1Pe 1:20 Who verily 3303 was foreordained 4267 before 4253 the foundation 2602 of the world 2889, but 1161 was manifest 5319 in 1909 these last 2078 times 5550 for 1223 you 5209,

2Pe 3:17 Ye 5210 therefore 3767, beloved 27, seeing ye know [these things] before 4267 , beware 5442 lest 3363 ye also 1601 0, being led away 4879 with the error 4106 of the wicked 113, fall from 1601 your own 2398 stedfastness 4740.

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On the other hand prognōsis (Strong's G4268) is derived from proginōskō (Strong's G4267).

The Biblical meaning for prognōsis is foreknowledge or forethought, pre-arrangementand and for for proginōskō is:

1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate


In modern English, foresee and foreknow are synonyms meaning to see beforehand.

foresee
Date: before 12th century
: to see (as a development) beforehand

synonyms foresee, foreknow, divine, anticipate mean to know beforehand. foresee implies nothing about how the knowledge is derived and may apply to ordinary reasoning and experience <economists should have foreseen the recession>. foreknow usually implies supernatural assistance, as through revelation <if only we could foreknow our own destinies>.

My conclusion from all this is there is a fine line being drawn here between foreknowledge and predestination. I believe that both of these ideas are supported in the Bible as I hope you can see and therefore I believe that God in all his power and glory uses both or more likely a much more complicated approach.


If anyone believes that they can fully understand Go's plan I would answer:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

Again sky..... do you think tornados are evil? How about giant sunamis? Hurricanes? Famine? Disease? God is in control of these things and His Holy Word says He causes them. I agree with His Word...... as much as I would like to think that He is just too nice to do those things..... I have to trust that He knows what He is doing when He does cause those things. Yes, they are calamity.
Does God cause anyone to sin or even temp them? NO.
Can God use the free moral agency of man and still accomplish His decrees without being the cause of sin? YES
How does He do that? I don't know. I can only point to Joseph and like stories in the Bible where God uses evil to cause good to come from it. He does this without being the author of evil. Again....... I have to go by our authority... Scripture.
The only reason I have "accused" you of not believing that God is completely omniscient is because of previous replys and posts that you made which not only imply but outright say that "God only knows what is knowable". If I am mistaken ( I'm not going to look up the posts) then please forgive me now.... and I'll admit I must be mistaken and we will go from there. What do you believe?

I used the word predestined because the bible uses it. If you would prefer to use the words "determine beforehand" where it would be applicable to the scripture....... I don't have a problem with that. It matters not how I would use the word, what matters is how God uses it. Don't you think?

Sky, I really appreciate your new attitude. I hope that we both are very sincere about our searching the scriptures for truth. I pray that you will continue to not misrepresent our theological position, or to view our position as one that is another Gospel. Hopefully you will see beyond the caracatures that many have employed falsely to our doctrine.

 

No. They are called "nature" or, scripturally, the "curse of sin."

Thank you. Foreknowledge fits perfectly with predestination.

Yes. R.C. Sproul says this a lot. It is an admission that the theology is not fully developed.

Or like I said -- in doing good, He brings an end to evil.

No, you are correct in that. I view that point (not knowing what can't be known) as an issue of "Can God create a weight He can't lift." It's an "antinomy" I believe.

OK, but my KJV uses "determined." So let's suppose that either term is appropriate -- which agrees with most of the rest of scripture would be the issue, right?

ABSOLUTELY! So "scripture with scripture," what do we see?

Thanks, rb. I've had a lot of "negative reinforcement" lately (i.e. "suspension" :laugh: ) Actually, I think we can "break it down" into parts and deal with the whole through understanding the components just as easily. My blood doesn't tend to "boil" so much when we are trying to reconcile as when we are trying to defame each other.

What I have been kinda seeking to do is to "build" a model that includes the truths in BOTH extremes, Eph 4:13-wise. Occasionally I will remind everyone of that but sometimes people become "hardover" to their own views. As you can see, I am trying here to find a model that takes into account your predetermination and my free will (both biblical) at the same time. Sometimes it seems as if predestination admits of no free will and free will admits of no predestination, right?

skypair

 

Thank you, rip. But isn't the simple, literal breakdown of the word not "know beforehand?" By what mechanism does it become "fore-love." I was thinking about this very issue last night and here's what I come up with -- man 'knowing' a woman is through love. Is that the sense in which you are using "know?" And doesn't such "knowing" require that the woman first also loves the man so that he can "know" her? So how does God "know" us if we don't first "know" Him?

First, please try to omit the divisive labels before giving definitions. "Foreseeing" either does or doesn't mean "seeing beforehand." And that is all it means unless you insert some theological agenda.

And please respond as to why God can't see beforehand that someone will choose Christ. This would clear up a lot, wouldn't it? Suppose God was looking for that "key" to "turn" and no one did so? That would be kinda like Laodicea in Rev 3:20, wouldn't it?

skypair

 

You make a case for the second instance -- I don't see the case for the first.

And as I said, God predestines the GOOD He WILL do. He does NOT predestine sin you or Satan will do.

Please work with the "model" we are trying to develop here, Mike. I know you are probably way more qualified than we are to construct a reliable model just as Calvin was in his day. But what we are dealing with is a model with both real free will and real predestination. And to be fair, on another thread we have discussed some possible models such as "Molinism," "open theism" (as you suggest), etc. We did not come to a conclusion there. So how can we make them compatible?

skypair

 

We love God because He first loved us. We do not love God first. God knows us before we know Him.

 

Yes. A good question asked through the years.

Will my reply be "off subject"? I don't believe so, for we cannot arrive at a correct understanding without "wisdom".

I find in many cases what will turn people off (Christian or no) is scripture. The Christian says I have read this before, and the unsaved says it has no meaning. But when reading any scripture do we really realize, analyze, and understand? The verses below are a case in point. Who is talking? When in time were these words said? Where does the speaker point us? What is the speaker addressing? Why is this in the Word of God? How are we to -- not interpret but allow the Holy Spirit's message to unfold in our hearts?

Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:3-13, " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise".

If we correctly answer the questions above, does this not tell us something?

Some good, and well thought out presentations given thus far. But I find one thing missing; Three little words that was, and could not be uttered until after Damascus Road. Who is it that tells about "predestination", and "foreknowledge"? This should give a hint where to look for understanding. Paul tells us he has been given a "dispensational gospel". Does this not narrow our search?

When we can determine on what basis David was saved, and we are saved, I believe only then will the Bible begin to be opened to us from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22.

 

And that helps us how? I mean, I know it's true that "before" has to have a timeframe in order to know whether to consider it in this exercise.

skypair

 

I made that statement because of this quote by you:

The Bible makes it clear that God is the first cause.

I think if our goal is to have the correct doctrine, we have to rightly interpret all scripture along the way. Otherwise, we will end up with a false doctrine.
That's how I think it's help us.