Predestination

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by reformedbeliever, Apr 11, 2007.

  1. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
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    Why do so many say "I don't believe in predestination"? If they believe in an Almighty sovereign God, then they would have to believe in predestination. Either God is all knowing or He isn't. Those who do not believe in predestination would have to be open theist. How could they not be?
    I can easily see how predestination and the responsibility of man can both be true. If someone makes a decision and acts upon it, then God has predestined it to happen. If something happens, then God knew it would happen, and it does happen if God knew it would. Men still make the choices according to their natures or the providence of God, and it still was predestined by God.
    Anyone disagree? :laugh:
     
  2. webdog

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    I believe in predestination. What I don't agree with calvinists on is the means by which things are predestined. Predestine means to determinie beforehand. You can determine something beforehand without being the cause. I can see a car driving right toward another person knowing what the end result will be.
    Take sin for instance. The sin I commited yesterday was predestined to happen...but God didn't cause me to sin. Taken to it's logical conclusion, every calvinist would have to come to the same conclusions johnp does, that nothing we do happens without God being the first cause of that action. Those who come to Christ are predestined to do so, not becuase God zapped them, and "irresistably" brought them in, but based on how God designed us, and His plan for us to come to Him.
    If we could all just grasp the notion that God exists in the past, present and future...in all places...all at once, at the same moment, things would start to come into focus a little clearer.
     
  3. reformedbeliever

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    Well here you are basing predestination upon prescience or foresight. I don't believe that is the reason anything is predestined. God is the first cause. There would not be any creation with Him being the first cause. God is able to, in His providence, have everything being in His will (nothing happens that God does not allow) without sin being caused by His direct will.
    To say that God elected based upon prescience, would be fatalistic, as I have already proved. If God simply foresaw who would believe and elected them based upon that foresight, then those whom He foresaw not believe have no chance of believing.
    You have to admit that the words pre, fore, etc. are in the bible to denote beforehand... not during or after. Yes God is omnipresent, and He does foresee, but does not base election upon such. That of course is MHO. :laugh:
     
  4. Andy T.

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    Basically, you equate predestination with foreknowledge/omniscience. I take it a step further in that God certainly knew that you were going to sin (foreknowledge), but he could have stopped you from sinning through a myriad of ways - he could have put obstacles in your way to keep you from a certain temptation, or he could have worked extra grace in your heart to help you resist that temptation, or he could have done it in a way that neither of us can imagine. But he chose not to; he allowed you to sin. And his choosing to do this was part of his plan - his predetermined plan - i.e., predestination.

    And why do you think Cals must come to the logical conclusion that God authors sin? What is illogical about God not working sin into people but rather working only righteousness?
     
  5. webdog

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    Nor do I. There is nothign "pre" or "fore" with an omnitemporal / atemporal God.
    To this I reply a hearty "Amen"!
    Having said that, this very same notion holds true with faith. To deny that, would mean you would have to deny what you have said here.
    Since we don't hold to the same notion of who the "elect" are (or understaned it differently)...or the purpose for and of election (God's sovereign will), I can't comment on this. Oh...too late, I already did :)
    Again, since I believe the "elect" are true Israel, I agree with your statement to a point.
    You know what, I agree with this too! I would also add those words are given and spoken to a creation that is bound by those words and time in general. Since God is omni / atemporal, these words cannot apply to Him.
     
    #5 webdog, Apr 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2007
  6. webdog

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    I base someone or something being predestined based on...
    God's omniscience
    God's omnipresence
    God's omnitemporalness
    God's omnipotence
     
  7. reformedbeliever

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    I wonder why God inspired those words to be there then web?

    I don't follow you here brother. I contend that God elected due to His fore loving us.
     
  8. reformedbeliever

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    But web.... how about God's omni loving those who are HIs? Without Him first loving us, this whole world would have already been completely distroyed.
     
  9. Andy T.

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    I would still like a response to my questions here:
    It doesn't have to be from you in particular, Webdog; it can be from anyone who thinks Cals must come to that "logical conclusion".
     
  10. Blammo

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    God is sovereign. Nothing can happen if it goes against His will, plan, or purpose. God is never disappointed or grieved. God learns nothing from creation, all was known by Him before creation 'cause He planned it. And He never changes His mind.
     
  11. Andy T.

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    Well, I agree with what you said above, except for the bolded italics part. So taking that sentence out and looking at the others, how is it that God must work sin into the hearts of people in order to be sovereign and predestine all that comes to pass?
     
  12. Blammo

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    God is sovereign. Nothing can happen if it goes against His will, plan, or purpose. God is never disappointed or grieved. God learns nothing from creation, all was known by Him before creation 'cause He planned it. And He never changes His mind.

     
  13. Andy T.

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    Sorry Blammo, I'm still not seeing it. What in those statements necessitates that God must work sin into people?
     
  14. Blammo

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    If someone sins, and that goes against God's will, then God is not sovereign over that person. Unless you assume that it is God's will that people sin.

    If someone sins, and God did not plan for people to sin, then people are sinning outside of God's plan. Unless you assume that God intended for people to sin.

    Before I go on, do you think God's sovereignty only applies to salvation?
     
  15. reformedbeliever

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    Hello Blammo. I think that sin is a part of God's overall will, but God's will does not directly cause man to sin.
    God definately planned for men to sin, or Christ would not have stood as the Lamb crucified before the foundation of the world.
     
  16. Blammo

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    What if men did not sin? Can a man do anything God has not predetermined? And doesn't predetermined mean caused?

    Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    What are you trying to prove to me when you bring these verses up?
     
  17. Andy T.

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    My answer to your last question is 'No' - there is not one square inch of this universe outside of God's sovereignty.

    Looking at your first two statements, you need to consider something. Was it God's predetermined plan that Jesus die on the cross at the hands of evil men? See Acts 2:23 and 4:28. Could God have planned another way of salvation without using the means of evil men and their evil actions? Yes, he could certainly have designed another way of salvation, if he wanted to. But the cross was his predetermined plan for the way of salvation, and along with that plan, evil men and their actions would accomplish what God planned beforehand. And he did this without violating his holiness; he did this without working sin into the hearts of those evil men - they acted on their own desires. But it was certainly in his decretive (ordaining; predestined) will that these evil men did what they did, in order to bring about the glory of the cross.

    So again, tell me how I am being inconsistent? Or better yet, tell us how Scripture is inconsistent when it proclaims both of these truths in Acts 2:23 and 4:28?
     
    #17 Andy T., Apr 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2007
  18. reformedbeliever

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    No man can not do anything that God has not already willed to happen. The question of "what if man did not sin" has already been answered. If God predestined Christ to be the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, then Adam and Eve could not have chosen otherwise.
    God is able to do this without being the cause of sin. God can not act in a manner that would be self defeating... or against His own nature.
     
  19. Blammo

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    So you believe, like I do, that God predestinates according to foreknowledge?
     
  20. Blammo

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    Did God have to cause Adam and Eve to disobey, or did He foresee their disobedience? How could He know, unless He caused it or forsaw it?
     

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