predestination

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Doeroftheword, Apr 27, 2009.

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  1. Doeroftheword

    Doeroftheword
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    I was thinking about something and it crossed my mind that every time Jesus speaks about Christians He says the words elect and chosen. Even the apostles used the word elect in instances. So my question is Do you think God chose us first or did we choose God? Does that mean God knows already who will go to heaven and some are destined not to? I hope i get a answer to this cause it is quiet confusing.
     
  2. sag38

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    Here we go! Get your sticks out boys. The dead horse is about to be beat again. Actually Doeroftheword, there are multiple threads on this subject that you can research. And, you will find that many do not agree on the answer to your question. Hence the dead horse.
     
  3. Berean

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    I was saved for many years before the Holy Spirit revealed the Doctorine of Sovereignty,Election, Grace or whatever you choose to label it to me. The most amazing thing about it was I could not understand how for so many years that I had read the scripture and repeated called, chosen,elect and even the ones my father has given me Jn 17:9 and not know the meaning and how many times it is referred to in both the OT and the NT. But the most blessed thing of all is that there will be people in Heaven of both Armenian and Calvinist Persuation and a whole bunch who don,t know the difference.
     
  4. webdog

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    Define "God chose us first"
     
  5. Doeroftheword

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    As in God chose who will be saved and who wont. He chose us to be Christian .
     
  6. webdog

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    He has chosen who will or who won't be saved...He has sovereignly chosen that those with faith in Christ will meet this requirement, so in this aspect, He has chosen us first. I think your question may be more along the lines of has He chosen us for salvation, and again, He has through faith in Christ as a result of the work of the Spirit. He has not chosen man for salvation apart from faith or as many believe, to give faith to.

    God is the first cause of salvation.
     
    #6 webdog, Apr 27, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2009
  7. Shortandy

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    This is indeed an honest question and like one has pointed out it has been discussed in detail on other threads on this forum.

    I will share this with you my friend. Pray, read the word, and pray somemore and let God lead you. In my expereince men on both sides of the fence bring more to the discussion than is needed. Many of my Calvinist friends (the ones who believe that God did choose) bring much pride to the argument. It is as though being a Calvinist is a symbol of intelligence or courage. This can be a real turn-off to you and it might keep you from studying the issue for yourself. However my non-Calvinist friends (those who believe we do all the choosing) bring a lot of emotionalism to the debate. At times much of their arguments try to pull your heart strings and they project their emotions and feelings on to God's.

    Learn what you can from all of the these men and let them challenge you but ultimately take it to the Word and pray for God is the giver of wisdom not men.
     
  8. historyb

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    Go chooses us, without His choosing us no one could get saved. Since God is sovereign He knows before hand who will get saved and not, God is never surprised.

    Hope that helps
     
  9. canadyjd

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    As others have said, there have been many threads discussing this issue that can be accessed in the archives.

    As I see it, folks who hold to predestination fall into two camps.

    #1. God predestined (in general) any who would have faith in Christ to salvation. Once they exercise their faith, they are chosen because of their faith and they are regenerated by Holy Spirit and they become God's "elect".


    #2. God predestined specific people for salvation. They are the "elect" of God before the foundation of the world. In the sovereignty of God, they are chosen according to His will and His will alone, and not according to anything we do or will do....and they will come to faith by the power of Holy Spirit in regeneration. Even faith is a gift of God. God works in such a way that all that He has chosen will come to repentance, faith, and salvation in Jesus Christ.

    Personally, I believe scripture supports #2 and does not support #1. In the first case, God responds to man's faith and gives grace. In the second, man responds to God's grace and is saved.

    I suspect someone might disagree with the 2 categories...but, hey, welcome to the BB.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  10. corndogggy

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    Romans 8:29-30 - "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

    Ephesians 1:4-5 - "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."



    ...whatever that means. :thumbs:
     
  11. Me4Him

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    This might help, or add, to your confusion. :laugh:

    The law is a mystery to most people, but it's really quite simple if a few facts about it are understood.

    First, for every written law there is an unwritten law implied by that which is written. (predestination by default)


    Second, the law can be broken by Commission or Omission.


    Third, The blindfold on the statue of lady justice is meant to represent no respect of persons where the law is concerned.


    Let's take a look at the law in relationship to the wages of sin and Jesus fulfilling that law.


    First, the law required a death before it could be satisfied, in dying, Jesus fulfilled that law,


    Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;


    Jesus's death nailed the law of "death for sin" to his cross, Jesus's death "NEVER" took away anyone's sins, only the "LAW",

    this opened the "possibility" that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved without dying for their sins.


    Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (law/wages of sin) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    By Jesus fulfilling the law of death for the sins for the whole world, the unwritten implied law is that the whole world is eligible to be free from the law of death for sin,

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    and no Judge can "Arbitrarily" deny a defendant the eligibility to be free from the law without also violating the law himself. (predestine)

    To do so, either inadvertently or Arbitrarily would be a "violation of omission" resulting in a mistrial, and possible removal of the Judge from the bench if it was Arbitrarily, showing a respect of persons is prohibited by law.

    Ac 10:34 God is no respecter of persons:


    If no one comes except God calls them, then God is obligated by law to make this "call to salvation" to all before "JUSTICE" resides in any judgment rendered.

    Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Of course God has promised that the gospel would be preached to the whole world before the end and none would perish by "his Arbitrary will".

    Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is ........... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    The doctrine of limited Atonement clearly shows a inadequate understanding of law and the principles on which law functions.

    In believing Jesus death took away sins, instead of the law, Calvin wrongly assumed Jesus's death had only a "limited atonement" for those who are saved.

    However Jesus's death only nailed the ordinance of law to the cross, not sin, this is why the law of death for sins can be taken away for the whole world, that they might be saved without dying, yet sin/death can still remain.

    Calvin also failed to understand that in Jesus fulfilling the law for the whole world, it also established an unwritten law that the whole world is eligible to be free from the law and this "freedom" must be offered, as a matter of law, if "JUSTICE" according to law is to prevail.


    Individual sins can only be taken away when the individual is willing to conform to Jesus image by sacrificing the "Body of sin" so that the "spirit" may come in to give new life to the soul. (born again)

    Every soul is born in a "body of sin" condemned from birth, Adam's sin condemned all flesh, but Adam's sin never condemned any other soul.

    All flesh is at enmity with God, but all souls are not, souls do not share in the condemnation/depravity of the flesh.

    Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Each soul only gives an account for it's own sin, and only after reaching the age of "knowing good/evil". (accountability)

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:

    Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

    In order to conform to Jesus's image, each soul must make the decision to shed the blood/crucify their body of sin, as Jesus was willing to crucify his body,

    Mt 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of,

    Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Heb 9:22 and without shedding of blood is no remission. (of sin)

    Personal sins can only be "taken away" when the soul is willing to shed the blood/life of it's body of sin, because of it's sin.

    1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,


    How can it be truthfully said that people perish because God's sovereign will chose them to perish

    after God said none perish because of his will,

    and yet people do perish in spite of God saying none perish because of his will,

    If God's sovereign will that none perish as stated, can't prevent people from perishing, then there is no guarantee God's sovereign will as stated, can save the chosen either.

    If sovereign will can fail on the one hand, it can fail on the other,

    Sovereign will introduced into the plan of salvation, either way, lost/saved, takes more away from God's sovereignty than it credits to him.


    Calvin's error pits Jesus/God against each other, Jesus dying to fulfil/take away the law for the whole world that they might be saved from having to die,

    And God predestine some to perish without any consideration of the law and Jesus's death that they might be saved.

    According to law, God can not/will not stand in the way of anyone being saved, without violating his own law,

    This leave Man's "UNBELIEF" as the only obstacle to the whole world being saved.

    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
     
  12. Robert Snow

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    I believe that God's elect are those who choose to accept God's gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.
     
  13. annsni

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    Which came first - the elect or the decision?
     
  14. Onlybygrace

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    SHORTANDY SAID:

    In my expereince men on both sides of the fence bring more to the discussion than is needed. Many of my Calvinist friends (the ones who believe that God did choose) bring much pride to the argument. It is as though being a Calvinist is a symbol of intelligence or courage. This can be a real turn-off to you and it might keep you from studying the issue for yourself. However my non-Calvinist friends (those who believe we do all the choosing) bring a lot of emotionalism to the debate. At times much of their arguments try to pull your heart strings and they project their emotions and feelings on to God's.

    All I can say in reply is OUCH!!!

    But thanks any way Shortandy because that will really help me discern the theological standpoints of my church members...I thought it would be hard but really, according to you it's quite simple...the ones that say something sensible are obviously full of pride and therefore Calvinists and the ones who cry in the services are the clearly the dumb arminians! Thanks Shortandy!
     
  15. webdog

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    With an omnitemporal God? Neither.
     
  16. annsni

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    How about with temporal man?

    Did God look ahead and say "Oh, OK - that guy is going to believe on me - so I'll elect and predestine him" or did God go ahead in time and choose him to believe on Him?
     
  17. sag38

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    Ann, it sounds like you are asking the same question in a different way.
     
  18. webdog

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    Since only those with faith in Christ are chosen for salvation, to man it is the decision.

    God did neither. He exists in all times at the same time, hence "I Am". I believe the very phrase "predestination" is an anthropomorphism.
     
    #18 webdog, Apr 29, 2009
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  19. MB

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    Here I come with my stick LOL:laugh:

    God doesn't have to look ahead nor does He predestine anyone but those who believe. There simply is no such thing as an elect vessle of wrath or one that is predestined to Salvation. The Bible says all men are drawn. Everyone who is saved was once a vessle of wrath. Not everyone is saved but everyone has received the light.
    Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world
    That light they have received is enough to bring them to Christ when they are drawn. It's enough to convince men of Christ. This same light is how we know when we hear the gospel that it is true. Once convinced we believe and we are convinced by the Word and the Holy Spirit and they turn our hearts to Christ. This isn't forced, man has a choice He can either believe the light or, rebel against the light. Many do rebel they stay in the darkness because they don't want to be seen in there sins.
    It is my belief that we were chosen in Christ. Once we believe God then chooses to saves us. Salvation is all of God all man does in submit to Christ. IOW's He gives up the rebellion. All men every where have been chosen for Salvation. There isn't anything particular about it. It all comes down to whether or not we continue in our rebellion or, Believe the gospel of Christ.
    MB
     
  20. annsni

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    No - What I'm saying is:

    Does God predestinate those who He sees in the future will choose Him (so it's man's choice and God just confirms it) or does God predestinate some to choose Him (so it's God's choice and man confirms it).
     
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