predestination

Are you asking whether that God will per-determine who will believe (His cause and effect, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will pre-determine? (our cause and effect, God's response)

??

OR...


Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His choice, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will pre-determine? (our choice, God's response)

??

OR...

Are you saying that God will choose who will believe (His influence, our response)

or

that those who will believe, God will choose? (our effect, God's cause)

??

 

I believe the latter.

 

Well here are some scriptures for you to sit, pray about, and carefully seek what the truth and context is. God Bless

1. Proverbs 16:4
2. Exodus 7:1-5
3. John 13:18
4. Romans 8:28-32
5. Jude 1:3-4
6. 1 Peter 1:1-2
7. II Thessalonians 2:13-15
8. Ephesians 1:1-14
9. Romans 9:6-25
10. Mark 13:20
11. Revelation 13:8
12. Revelation 17:8
13. 1 Corinthians 1:20-31
14. 2 Timothy 1:9
15. Exodus 33:19
16. Deuteronomy 7:6-9
17. Deuteronomy 14:2
18. Acts 13:48
19. Acts 16:14-15
20. John 6:37-39
21. John 6:44
22. John 6:63-65
23. John 10:1-30
24. John 17:2
25. Nehemiah 9:7
26. Joshua 24:2-3
27. Ezekiel 20:5
28. Exodus 19:4
29. Deuteronomy 4:37-39
30. Exodus 4:22-23
31. Hosea 11:1-
32. Deuteronomy 10:14-15
33. Matt. 3:9
34. Luke 1:15
35. Luke 10:21-22
36. Romans 4:6-8
37. Col. 2:13
38. Eph 2:1-10
39. Isaiah 40:5
40. Isaiah 43:10
41. Jeremiah 1:5
42. Psalm 14:1-3

 

I agree.

The "free gift" is to "All Men", which confirms God not willing any perish.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Many Calvinist believe God must give a person the "faith to believe", before they will believe, but it is the person's faith that completes the plan of salvation. (saved)

If Faith was a gift from God, then God would be "obligated" to give it to "ALL", just as Jesus took away the Law for all.

Any "willingness" on God's part to withhold faith from some would result in them perishing because of God's "will".

Every verse in scripture must be interpreted within the context of "Jesus dying that the whole world might be saved because God isn't willing for "ANY" to perish.

 

God is not "obligated" to do anything for any person.

And since scripture clearly says that faith is a gift of God, there is no "if" about it.

No, it doesn't. You can't just ignore what you don't agree with and expect to understand scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

No theological doctrine is established on one verse of scripture.

Yes context is vital to understand a verse, but theological doctrine requires the whole, with the New Testament explaining the Old.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Anything God said he will do/not do, God is "OBLIGATED" to "keep his words".

And one of those "obligations" God keeps is that not any would perish because of "God's WILL".

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Just what is the gift given here, "salvation", (saved) and it's given through (because of) "FAITH", and if there is no faith, there is no "Grace".

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The gift of God is eternal life, not "Faith".

If God's will prevents any person from being saved by withholding any part of the plan of salvation causing them to perish, then God lied.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is...... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Heb 6:18 in which it was impossible for God to lie,

Jesus invited Israel to the "lamb's marriage supper", they turned down his offer,

Jesus said the reason was that they "closed their eyes/ears", didn't believe Jesus.

Jesus said "I WOULD" take them under my wings, but "YOU WOULD NOT".

Why would you think the plan of salvation is any different today, the offer still stands to the whole world, and like Israel, people still have a "CHOICE" to believe or not believe.

 

God chose some to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-6]. These he will regenerate and impart to them saving faith. [Ephesians 2:1-8]

 

Justice and love to name a couple reasons.

If it's God will that man not sin, why do they?

 

If they are "in" Jesus Christ, they have already had faith.

 

"UNBELEIF" is why people perish.

"unbelief" also translate into "disobedience", "God calls", but they reject the calling.

Faith is a willingness to obey for no other reason than "faith", and it's this "HUMBLENESS" that God looks for in a person, God won't save a person full of "PRIDE".

Disobedience/Pride/Unbelief are all characteristic of the "body of sin" (flesh) which can never change.

Obedience/Humbleness/Faith is willing to crucify the "body of sin" because of it's sin, (confess/repent)

these are the people God choses to save and the "reason" they are chosen and the others are not.

God's will is that none perish, but man's will trumps God will, because men do perish in spite of God's will.


If "Faith" had to be provided by God/Jesus, it too would have been included that the whole world "WOULD BE" saved, instead of "MIGHT BE" saved.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise (Salvation) by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (Grace)

Lu 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith?

When you say God provides the "Faith", it's evidence you don't understand the role faith plays in the plan of salvation.

P.S. there is no "Hidden will" of God, except to those who are in "DARKNESS".

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

 

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

chosen us in him, predestinated the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.

I see an outline of how God predestinated/chosen to adopt some children through Jesus, but I don't see any limitations on the number of Children he could adopt, or who would/wouldn't be adopted.

 

Please drop this heretical and blasphemous stuff. Your posts sound more and more like skypair's.

 

Does your will override God's when you sin, since Scripture is very clear it is God's will that we do not sin?

 

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you seem to recognize that God has predestinated/chosen "some children", then in your very next words you say you don't see any limitations on the number of children He adopts.You generally espouse the latter.But it's interesting that you acknowledge (in moments of lucidity) the former.

The Lord has chosen some. He has not chosen all. That's the thing about the word chosen. It is selective.The Lord is under no obligation to predestine each and every person head-for-head.He is merciful to the ones He wants to be. And He hardens others. It's His sovereign choice to do whatever pleases Him. Don't talk back to God in the matter.

 

O, so you want to join MFH's heterodox group? You want to champion the completely unorthodox position that the will of man overrides God's will? You're going to have to remove a lot of passages from the Bible to maintain your stance. Your Bible will look like Thomas Jefferson's in the process. You better rethink your view. Ask the Lord's pardon while you're at it.

 

I suppose Jesus's death for the sins of the "whole world" that they "MIGHT BE" saved was a "WORTHLESS" effort on his part because God didn't have the "WILL" to save the "whole world"??? :tonofbricks: