predestination

So God is not really God then, either God is sovereign over all or He is not.
Myth of Free Will

 

Lets see....

was it YOU that said that man trumps Gods will??????????????????

Yes..I think so

 

Clever way to dodge

In other words...no answer????????????????????

Come on Ben....

Go for it

 

You ever going to just answer? I'm beginning to think not.

 

will 1 (wl)n.1. a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.
b. The act of exercising the will.

2. a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win.
b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction.

3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.
4. Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.
5. Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will.
6. Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will.
7. a. A legal declaration of how a person wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after death.
b. A legally executed document containing this declaration.

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I WANTED to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE UNWILLING

Christ wanted (by definition of will...desired or wished) something...but gasp...they were unwilling.

Wow! Christ took the "unorthodox position" and was not a calvinist after all!

 

From Longman Dictionary of English Language and Culture : rhetoric 1. the art of speaking or writing in a way that is likely to persuade or influence people

Thanks Ben.

 

Just after reading through some of these things I just felt that I would try my best to clear up some issues here that bothered me :laugh:

First, Deut 29:29- secret things of God are those things God hasnt revealed to us including who are the elect and so forth. and the revealed things are the things He has revealed such as the Law and the Gospel.

Second, Yes it is true that whosoever is willing may turn and freely choose to believe in Christ and be saved.

But...

Psalm 14:1-3--- The fool says in his heart, "there is no God." They are all corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there is any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good not even one.

So who are the fools...

everyone is a blind fool before God and are evil at heart, read Ephesians 2..

third- it is not God who believes for us, but God's call and regeneration is effectual which simply means that it opens our hearts and revives us in a way in which we will choose Him based on what we have been revealed through the gospel. (The results and testimonies vary). This is why it is impossible to be saved without the Holy Spirit at work.

fourth- The message we preach is repent and believe in the Gospel and we all must choose to repent and believe, but unless God is at work (secretly, we dont see it, John 3:8) the person will remain blind and reject the offer. So even though we might have chosen to believe in God, it was God who led us perfectly to fall on Him with all our trust and hope for eternity.

IOW- God isnt waiting around for dead and blind sinners to believe in Him, He has predestined a few to recieve grace which means He is the author of these dead men's salvation. Jesus can wait all day in this world with His arms open to sinners, but guess what, they pass Him daily and never know it.

- I can't deny John 10 or Romans 9 in this secret work of God's sovereign grace.

 

A poor understanding of scripture, which leads to a poor view of God.

I went over part of this last week. Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 are just part of the picture. The full picture you keep wanting to deny. WHY?


Lets try this again. We will take it very slow this time.

Lets quote a few verses that YOU admit is in the Bible...

1) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

OK..now lets qoute a few verses that you seem to deny or at least will not address.

1) Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

2) Job 38:11
and said, 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?

3) Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'

4) Isaiah 46:11
calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

5) Psalm 135:6
Whatever the LORD pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.

6) Matthew 10:29-31
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

7)Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

8) Romans 4:19-21
He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was(A) as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.

9) Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Ok...now lets look at some verses that have both ideas in them...
RED = Planned and willed by God.
Blue = Man seems to have willed it.

1) Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

2) Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

************************
So what is going on here? Who's will is coming about?
Lets look at a few more verses that shows bad things happen and these bad things are GODS will.

NOTE: Please notice that God WILL save them, but WILL NOT save them from war.
1) Hosea 1:7
But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen."

NOTE: Please notice God sends Assyria a ungodly people to fight seize and kill HIS PEOPLE. but God will judge the Assyrian for going...
2) Isa 10
5Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
6Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few;
8for he says: "Are not my commanders all kings? 9 Is not Calno like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad?
Is not Samaria like Damascus?
10As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
whose carved images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11shall I not do to Jerusalem and her idols
as I have done to Samaria and her images?"
12 When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.

************
So how are we to understand both sides of this?
You have you verse...and then we have tons of other verses that seem to say something else. But we both know that they do not.

Now I tried to have you look at this last week. I gave this quote by Storms..

also I have posted 3 times this...

And no one wants to address it. Why dodge it?

 

I certainly did, and you still didn't "get it". :smilewinkgrin:

God said none perish because of his will for them to perish.

"Sovereign will" that none perish and people perishing is an "oxymoron" in the predestination doctrine that can never be reconciled.

So you'll either have to redefine "Sovereign" or remove it altogether from the doctrine.

The plan of salvation has been described as "Synergism".

Jesus dying that the whole world might be saved because God is not willing for any to perish is a good example of synergism.

"Man's will" (believing God/law, confessing his sins) is a synergism that works with "God's will" against sin, these are the people God choses to save.

We can love/follow the "lust of the flesh" and the world/sin, or love God and hate sin,

it's "impossible" for God to "MAKE" anyone "LOVE", that's a "CHOICE" only a "HEART" can make and the "MAJOR" obstacle to "predestination" doctrine.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,

Love is only love when God/Person is free to decide whom they will love,

and God "CHOSE" to love the whole world, while we were yet "Sinners", no respect of persons.

 

Yes you did, and with a bit of pride at that....

Lets take it very slow for you as well.

You post over and over...

In light of all scripture...which includes these verses..

I ask for the 4th time...

Please don't dodge what was asked.

 

Keeping it real slow...

You also said a few pages back.

Why is..."God's will is not involved in "OUR" decision to "believe" or not believe"?

If this is true....which i disagree with....but if it be true who made the decision not to be involded?

 

I don't disagree or "deny" the Scripture as you say (which is a personal attack, btw). I believe your view and lack of understanding on God's sovereign will (which is clear by Scripture and the verse I supplied that is composed of a permissive will, decreeing will and declarative will). Like last week (allegedly) what were you trying to prove exactly? That Scripture doesn't disagree with anything I have said. I have posted clearly where Christ wanted something, but do to what the people wanted, didn't get it. Why deny this very plain passage?

 

God did not choose us to be christians, he chose christians to be his favored ones whom he calls his elect.

 

How can God's will not any perish be a "SOVEREIGN WILL" if people perish???

The doctrine of predestination by God's sovereign will injected God's decision into our decision,

and after God saying it's not his "will" for any to perish by "Unbelief".

How can you, or anyone say we don't have the Freedom to believe whatever we chose,

and then disagree on doctrine, did God predestine you to believe your belief and me mine??

A "Thought" can be sin (look/lust) did God predestine you to sin, or is your "thoughts", your own, even your thoughts on doctrine.

Man is free to believe any doctrine he choses, that's evident in this debate, but believing the "RIGHT DOCTRINE" is what leads to salvation.

De 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the (rain/doctrine) water that I shall give him shall never thirst;

 

It is because God's will in this context is passive rather than proactive. It represents a revelation of that which is pleasing to God, not an action taken by God.

 

This is not an indication of weakness; it is representative of God's respect for his sense of justice. The law says, if you sin, you die...

If it is hidden, how can we? Suffice it to say that God's hidden (that which is not necessarily hidden, but has not been revealed.} will does not contradict God's revealed will. Where can I read this difference?

 

"Hidden will" "passive rather than proactive"? Seems to me the predestinarians are relying on creaturely free will to be some sort of "mystery" while procaliming a divine deterministic sovereignty in the matter all at the same time?

 

God is love.

Love is blind.

Stevie Wonder is blind.

Stevie Wonder is God.