Premillennialism

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Jul 24, 2003.

  1. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    First, I would like to make it known that I am not an expert on eschatology. However, I am more pursuaded of the Amillennial interpretation. I believe it makes more sense because it takes into account how the New Testament writers interpreted the Old Testament prophecies. Just one example of this can be found in Acts 15:13-17. If I understand the Premillennial view correctly, there are several problems I see. According to Revelation 20:7-9, there will be a revolt of the nations against the people of God. This means that there must be some who are not of the elect of God alive during the thousand years. In His explanation of the parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:36-43), Jesus said, "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42) According to Jesus, there will be no unconverted people to populate a so-called "Millennium" because they will be destroyed.

    In Hope of Eternal Life...
     
  2. David Mark

    David Mark
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    Rather than start a new thread, I thought it appropriate to add to yours.

    I like to reason. I know that reasoning can be dangerous.

    Nevertheless, many spiritual things just make complete sense to me. Do you know what I mean? They fit like perfect pieces to a perfect puzzle.

    Major things that people had could barely understand 2000 years ago just make so much sense to me.

    For example: The law as schoolmaster and how Christ fulfilled the law. Salvation by grace and not of works. Sure it takes faith, but it is so reasonable to my mind.

    Having said that, and as a student there are things that make no sense to me.

    For example: Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Three and a half years of peace then three and a half years of the worst trouble ever seen. Why? All of the explanations I've heard do not make any sense to me.

    Then 1000 years on earth, with the saints ruling with Christ with the "rest of the dead" being raised at the end of the 1000 years? Why and for what purpose?

    Don't get me wrong. These things appeal to me, but when I ask why, I have no practical answer, just mystery.

    As of now, I am meditating on an actual 1000 year millennial rule and the raptured saints back on earth but it makes no sense to me. Why and for what purpose?

    I meditated on the three and a half years of tribulation all my life and I only had questions. It never made a lick of sense to me. Now I meditate on just the end and the second coming and what seems to me as the worst of the worst being behind. That makes more sense to me.

    I don't teach these things, I just meditate on them and ask why. I frequently privately reject those who say they actually know the truth and teach such things with authority. Their whole ministries unfortunately become suspect to me.

    Dave
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    This is a very simple problem. Those who come out the tribulation are saved. However, the children that are born to them are born like every other child that has ever been born. They are totally depraved and thus are in a state of rebellion against God. While some of them may be elect, there are some who will not be and it is from this latter group that the rebellious assembly is formed.

    These are the type of objections that many hold that are easily answered. It shows yet again how easily defensible the premillennial viewpoint is. There has yet to be a serious unanswerable objection put forth against it.
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    So when a saved person during the Mill. dies, will he be able to attend his own funeral as a new creature?
     
  5. lighthouse

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    Primitive Baptist,
    Good morning to you. Three things you need to keep in mind when reading the Word of God.
    1] who is speaking
    2] who is being spoken to
    3] what dispensation is it

    Acts 15 is speaking of the restoration of Israel. God is not done with His people. "The blindness of Israel is in part"(Rom.11:25). When they rejected God the Father(1Sam.8), then rejected God the Son(Jn.19), then rejected God the Holy Spirit(Acts 7), God turned to the Gentiles to make a people for His name. When the church is complete, God will remove the church from the earth and deal with His people once again. A seven year period where they will come under the wrath of the anti-christ. Just short of the end of the seven year period, Christ will come back to set up a 1000 year kingdom with all His Saints(Zech.14:9) That is what Matt. ch. 13:40 and ch.25:31-33 is all about. The end of the anti-christ reign, the coming of the Lord, judgement of nations, setting up the kingdom. Now, after the 1000 years, even in the presence of Jesus, there will still be some rebellious people. The Lord will let the devil out of his prison to gather up these people for one last stand(Rev.20:7-10). In the end, they will lose and be condenmed forever.
     
  6. lighthouse

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    David Mark,
    When the church is complete, the Lord will call them home(1Thess.4). The same time there is a war in heaven where the devil is cast down to the earth(Rev.12:12) with great wrath. The church is not appointed unto wrath(1Thess.5:9). God placed His wrath on His Son in our place. This wrath is directed towards the people of Israel for their rejection of the God-Head. This seven year covenant will be a fulfilled old testament prophecy where the devil will come into power through flatteries(Dan.11:21). In the midst of this 7 year period, he(the devil) will go into the new built temple and sit on the mercy seat proclaming that he is god and he is to be worshipped(Dan.9:27; 2Thess2:4). He will persecute the Jews but the Lord will not forsake them(Rev.12:14). In the end, one third will come out of the fire(Zech.13:8,9).

    As far as the resurrection "of the dead" after the 1000 years, that is necessary because that is the resurrection of the dead. All the lost people of all time. It is the time of the Great White Throne(Rev.20:11-15). The people that has been in hell all these years, will be reunited with their bodies to stand in judgement. "And death(bodies) and hell(soul) were delivered up"(Rev.20:14).
     
  7. Artimaeus

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    Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    This hasn't happened in the past.
    It isn't happening now.
    It must be in the future.
    Thus, Premillenialism.

    To spiritualize, or count as allegory EVERYTHING in the Bible reduces it to mear speculation on everyone's part. You end up with a collection of elite teachers who can say it means anything they want it to mean and you have no ground to stand on to refute them. Common sense tells you that "dragon" and "serpent" are figurative descriptions of Satan. There is no reason to believe that these verses don't mean what the plain sense of them say. If it doesn't "fit" with a particular system of eschatology then the system of eschatology needs to be changed not the meaning of words.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Of course not ... He will not be raised until the end of the Millennium.
     
  9. Gunther

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    It does not appear as though you really want an answer, but the saved will not die during the Millenium. Only the lost will die.
     
  10. KenH

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    Non-premillennialists do not allegorize EVERYTHING in the Bible and premillennialists do not literalize EVERYTHING in the Bible.
     
  11. Endre Denes

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    Reading the last few chapters of Isaiah we learn that the remnant of Israel will live through the Millenium. There will be death and curse on the land, but abundance, peace and longevity to (ch. 65:17-25, etc.). If we read some other chapters from Isaiah, Zechariah etc., we find other nations in the millenial kingdom, who will go to Jerusalem to learn and to obey the word of God.

    Still this period will show, that man is incorrigibly wicked, because he is capable and culpable of sin (Is. 65:20). At the end of 1000 years when Satan is loosed to deceive the nations, man will be proved to be prone to temptation. This in fact is the test of the last dispensation!

    After God disposes of the devil, all mankind will be resurrected, and the Great White Throne Judment will follow. Why? For the punishment of the last 2 enemies (death&hell), the eternal damnation of the lost (Rev.20:14-15), and for the glorification of the redeemed in the eternal bliss of the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem!

    Oh, what an end for us who believe!

    -Endre-
     
  12. Pete Richert

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    I wish to here Guther and Pastor Larry discuss among themselves whether the elect will die during the millinuium. There seems to be a differing view point on this one.
     
  13. Gunther

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    Pete, good to see you around again. I always appreciate your posts and thoughts.

    Like Larry, I believe that death does occur during the millenial reign. However, those who die only do so because of their unregenerate condition.

    I would also like to hear Larry's thoughts on the matter, but one problem is when passages in the prophets (primarily Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel) are read, it is not always distinguishable between the eternal state and the millenial reign.

    One thing people confuse is this: just because Christ reigns for 1,000 years, does not mean his kingdom is only 1,000 years. The 1,000 years is just the beginning of his eternal kingdom. The difference is that during the first 1,000 years, sin can take place, people will still be born with a corrupt heart and need of the Savior, and rebellion is foretold. One the eternal state has been usherred in, none of those things will exist. Sin and satan and the world system will be finally and totally removed.
     
  14. Dr. Bob

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    Jesus will reign for the Milennia before a final rebellion and the dissolution of heaven and earth. Paul concludes:
    After the great white throne judgment and casting of death and hades into the Lake of Fire, Jesus will reign in a New Heaven and New Earth for ever and ever.

    [cue music from The Messiah]
     
  15. Trotter

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    If I have learned anything at all about the subject of the Rapture and the Second Coming, it is that no matter what the reasoning, there will be an arguement. Personally, I believe that Christ will call out His church before the Tribulation, and I come to that conclusion through what the Bible says.

    I do not condemn anyone who sees this in a different way, and I would appreciate the same.

    I do not understand the other positions (not the positions themselves, but how they came to have them). But I am not looking for a lecture on them, either. I hold my views because this is what God has shown me, and it will be God who will change my mind through His word.

    I must say that I agree with Artimaeas. Without using a literal approach, men reduce the Word of God to mere speculation and good suggestions. A literal approach opens the subject of the Rapture.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  16. Tim

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    Quoting Artimeas, "To spiritualize, or count as allegory EVERYTHING in the Bible reduces it to mear speculation on everyone's part. You end up with a collection of elite teachers who can say it means anything they want it to mean and you have no ground to stand on to refute them. Common sense tells you that "dragon" and "serpent" are figurative descriptions of Satan. There is no reason to believe that these verses don't mean what the plain sense of them say. If it doesn't "fit" with a particular system of eschatology then the system of eschatology needs to be changed not the meaning of words. "
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Talk about overgeneralization! Who has the biggest group of "elite" teachers--complete with complex charts to explain their very complicated view of endtimes? Dispensationalists! If plain sense and common sense are the guiding principles--then why are there so many different flavors of premillenialism? And changing the meanings of words--let's not get into all the time indicators in the N.T. that are redefined on a regular basis by "literalists".

    As John Stossel says, "give me a break!"

    Tim
     
  17. Gunther

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    Tim, there is no redefining of terms for the faithful dispy. Please give me an example. You might be thinking of the time references, but as has already been pointed out, if something has more than one meaning you MUST rely on context.
     
  18. Tim

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    Gunther,

    There are actually dozens of passages dealing with time that are tweeked by dispensationalists to fit their system. About a month ago, Grasshopper listed many of them in another thread. Most of them have to do with references to the "soon" coming of Christ, "shortly", "will not tarry", "this generation", etc.

    But let me mention one on another subject, the resurrection. Jesus plainly states that both the evil and the righteous will be resurrected in a timeframe he describes as an "hour" in John 5:28-29. Yet dispies typically separate these resurrections by seven tumultuous years.

    Please explain without "tweeking",

    Tim
     
  19. Grasshopper

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    Without using a literal approach, men reduce the Word of God to mere speculation and good suggestions.

    9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.12 I will make a man more rare than fine gold, even a man than the pure gold of Ophir.13 Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    Literal?

    Tim, there is no redefining of terms for the faithful dispy. Please give me an example.

    I stayed away from single words like soon, near, about, quickly, because you dispys butcher those. So here are some phrases that indicate time. So butcher away.

    "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

    "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

    "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)


    “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)


    “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)


    “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)
     
  20. rb

    rb
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    This one is good! try to study...

    A DEFENSE OF (REFORMED) AMILLENNIALISM
    by Prof. David J. Engelsma

    click here: A DEFENSE OF REFORMED AMILLENNIALISM


    Richard
     

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