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Presbyterian Problems

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Andrew C Bain, Apr 9, 2005.

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  1. Andrew C Bain

    Andrew C Bain New Member

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    Westminster Shorter Catechism (Presbyterian)
    Q. 85. What does God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse, due to us for sin?
    A. 85: ... diligent use of all the outward means

    Q. 88. What are the outward and ordinary means?
    A. 88: ... the sacraments

    In other words, Q. 85. What does God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse, due to us for sin?
    A. 85+88: ... diligent use of ... the sacraments


    REMARK: Justification is escaping God's curse. Believers are justified by the atoning blood and righteousness of Christ which is imputed to them through faith. Faith is passive, it is Christ's light shining into their hearts (2 Cor 4:6), and the Holy Spirit witnessing to their spirits that they are children of God (Rom 8:6). The initial cause of believing the gospel is outside the believer, solely founded on the entrance of the Holy Spirit into their hearts; and He testifies to the truthfulness of God's record concerning Christ. The believer does not have free will to choose initially to believe the gospel, or free will to later doubt the gospel. Rather, The one receiving His testimony has sealed that God is true (John 3:33). God has declared all believers as justified, and there is no quest for assurance of personal justification. Believers have the seal that God is true -- the Just God and Saviour -- and they know He is their Justifier.

    Sanctification is NOT a means of escaping God's curse. The believer does NOT "diligently use" anything to escape God's wrath. Did the Jews escape the wrath of the Egyptians by observing the Passover? No. Likewise, observing the Lord's Supper will not save anyone from God's curse. Jesus Christ was ALONE on the cross. He was made a curse, and met all the conditions necessary for salvation. Again, faith believes that Christ met all the conditions, and it is NOT itself a condition.

    Yet, the Shorter Catechism would lead us to think that the believer has to contribute to his salvation. It says that God "requires" believers to do good works, to escape His wrath. In fact, it says that believers can pay the penalty "due to us for sin" by making "diligent use" of the sacraments etc. This is damnable heresy. The Westminster devils called God a liar. By implication, they said that God lied in such passages as Romans 5:9. God said in Romans 5:9 that "Much more then, being justified now by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath through Him." Here, God equates justification with escaping God's wrath. It's through Christ's blood alone that believers are saved from hell. And, no, entrance into heaven or rewards in heaven are not based on man's active obedience (N. Shepard, J. Kinnaird et al.). John Kinnaird would twist Romans 6:23 to read: "For the wages of sin is death, but the wages of good works is eternal life." Kinnaird too, calls God a liar. However, this should not be surprising -- the Shorter Catechism teaches that good works are "effectual to salvation".

    The gospel is God's promise to save His people based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness alone. Repent and believe the gospel!


    Andrew C. Bain
    http://www.Godnoliar.com
    [email protected]
     
    #1 Andrew C Bain, Apr 9, 2005
  2. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    WHOA!!!! Hang on just a minute.

    Andrew- man, what you are claiming is very misleading.

    Here is what the WSC really says (did you think no one would bother checking?)

    Q. 85. What doth God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse, due to us for sin?
    A. To escape the wrath and curse of God, due to us for sin, God requireth of us faith in Jesus Christ, repentance unto life, with the diligent use of all the outward means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption.

    Q. 88. What are the outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption?
    A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption are, his ordinances, especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation.

    Now I don't claim to be the sharpest pencil in the box, but what you say it says and what it says clearly ain't the same!

    You got a problem with the WSC? If so that's fine. Let's discuss it. But lets discuss it honestly--- frankly, this is about the worst 'butcher' job I've seen in a while.

    By the way, N. Shephard does NOT represent what Reformed adherents to the Westminster Standards believe-- and no honest person with a lick of sense could state that he does. You search a few reformed websites and you will quickly see that Shephard is regarded as a heretic. Or is that just another fact that you chose to leave out?
     
    #2 Monergist, Apr 9, 2005
  3. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    AMEN Monergist! AMEN!

    I am definitely NOT Presbyterian, nor am I Cavinist in the slightest, but even I could see the "slight of hand" being done here.

    My Great-grandfather was Presbyterian D.Div. and my grandmother told many stories about him, and I can tell you...what this fellow (Andrew Bain) posted was dishonest to say the least, if not outright deceptive!

    That being said, and since I am not Presbyterian at all, I will bow out of this for now.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
    #3 av1611jim, Apr 10, 2005
  4. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    I am a Presbyterian, and I find the accusations interesting, but false. Faith is not passive by any stretch of the imagination, the Passover was the means by which the Children of Israel escaped the visit of the Angel of Death, and the idea that believers are somehow only required to make some kind of mental assent, without any resulting action whatsoever, either through means of worship or service, is ludicrous.
     
    #4 tragic_pizza, Apr 10, 2005
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Jim,

    I don't believe you bowed out ... ;o)
     
    #5 El_Guero, Apr 10, 2005
  6. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    "Q. 85. What doth God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse, due to us for sin?
    A. To escape the wrath and curse of God, due to us for sin, God requireth of us faith in Jesus Christ, repentance unto life, with the diligent use of all the outward means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption.

    Q. 88. What are the outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption?
    A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption are, his ordinances, especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation."

    How is this different from the Catholic/ Orthodox teaching of 'faith+works'?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #6 Matt Black, Apr 11, 2005
  7. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Matt,

    My impression of reformed theology places it very close to the RCC. Works somehow creeps back into their theology.
     
    #7 El_Guero, Apr 11, 2005
  8. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Explain to me, then, how any rational theology can completely ignore the role of our own actions?
     
    #8 tragic_pizza, Apr 11, 2005
  9. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    "Did the Jews escape the wrath of the Egyptians by observing the Passover?"

    Yes, they did!
     
    #9 billwald, Apr 12, 2005
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Specifically, the Jews escaped the wrath of God upon Egypt by putting their faith in the blood applied on the doorpost and lentel. It was faith in the blood that saved them (faith demonstrated by strict obedience to the words of God, but faith nevertheless). Salvation is by faith alone. It is demonstrated by works.
    DHK
     
    #10 DHK, Apr 12, 2005
  11. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Salvation requires some kind of action on our part. For Evangelicals, that action is walking the aisle, or saying a Sinner's Prayer.
     
    #11 tragic_pizza, Apr 13, 2005
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