Preservation or Perseverance

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jbh28, May 21, 2010.

  1. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is the difference between the Preservation of the saints and the perseverance of the saints. I know the 5th point of tulip is "perseverance" but what exactly does that mean? Is there a big significance in the doctrine behind these terms, or is it just a difference on perspective.
     
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints requires a characteristics life of good works as inherent and necessary to the existence of genuine salvation. Therefore, there is no salvation "without works" but works are necessarily inherent in true salvation.

    The Biblical doctrine of preservation of the saints rests completely upon grace alone "without works" to secure saving faith in Christ as the only basis for the promise of eternal life. It does not deny that works manifest the presence of salvation to men and give assurance of salvation to the elect but it does not require them as inherent and necessary to the existence of salvation.
     
  3. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm taking a wild guess here that you reject the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance. I also assume you wouldn't classify yourself as a Calvinist.
     
  4. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are correct on both counts. I am a Biblicist and a Paulician when it comes to the doctrine of electing grace in salvation.
     
  5. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the info, I didn't really know the difference between the two. I would agree with you in preservation based on the definitions you gave.
     
  6. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Different people would have different levels of interpretation of "perseverance."

    Some would feel that it has to do with continual, enduring internal faith, which may or may not be accompanied by any outward show of good works.

    Some would feel that there is simply a noticeable, lasting change in the personality and works, but still capable of occasional and even serious stumbling.

    Some could be as legalistic as an IFBx and think that any slip up from outward appearance of perfection indicates that no regeneration ever took place.

    The phrase "perseverance of the saints," although not intentional from the Reformed perspective, seems to say that the saints are the ones with the power in and of themselves to perform works, and thus makes it seem that the saints are working to earn their salvation.

    I would prefer "preservation of the saints" myself. The word reflects more of the effect of God toward the saints rather than something coming from the efforts of the saints themselves.

    Of course, many also argue "preservation" over "perseverance" from the "Free Grace" perspective such that one "act" of faith (i.e. prayer) saves someone, but that regeneration can still have absolutely no effect on the person's life. Getting saved is just someone doing his one-time "faith move" and God simply checks a box that the person is now "saved," yet God cannot effectively sanctify.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's really simple.

    Perserverance depends upon a man's faithfulness to Jesus.

    Preservation depends upon Jesus's faithfulness to man.

    In perserverance, a man keeps his salvation.

    In preservation, Jesus keeps a man's salvation.
     
  8. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which is why personally I don't like the term perseverance and prefer the the preservation. It is Jesus that is the one keeping us. I know that Calvinist would say that it is God the keep us and there for we persevere, but the term itself can be misleading. That is why in my beliefs, I call is preservation because I don't want people to think I believe the Arminian doctrine of perseverance.
     
  9. Txspurgeon

    Txspurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    I prefer the Preservation of the perserverance of saints. I agree with Sproul on that one.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    This is a true definition, thank you.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    and I will go with winman on this one.
    besides Jude never speaks of perseverance, just preservation.
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Or we could use a Calvinist confession to define what "calvinists" mean.

    Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
    1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
    ( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )

    2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
    ( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

    3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
    ( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
    http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html


    Seems rather Biblicist and Paulican to me.
     
  13. jcjordan

    jcjordan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with both perseverance and preservation. Our perseverance is totally dependent on the Father's preservation.
     
  14. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can view many things from two perspectives; God looking down to man and man looking up to God. The same doctrine can then be viewed as God's ultimate preservation of the saints and man's perseverance. Both fit under the absolute sovereignty of God,,,,,,,,man's perspective fits under the permissive will of God, a division of God's absolute sovereignty.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  15. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,430
    Likes Received:
    72
    This :thumbsup:.

    And, for the purposes of this thread...

    The Guide to Theological Cocktails (non-alcoholic):

    "Biblicist and Paulician" = Arminian with a splash of Calvin, mix and serve on the rocks

    "Hyper-calvinist" = take whatever your favorite drink is and put a smidge more Beza in it.

    "Arminian"= Anything from Calvinist with a splash of Arminius to straight Arminius, served neat

    "Calvinist" = Anything from Arminius with a splash of Calvin to straight Calvin, served neat

    "Augustinian" = straight Calvin in an old-fashioned glass

    "Pelagian" = not served at this establishment

    "Semi-Pelagian" = the nickname for the Arminian by heavy Calvin drinkers

    "Calminian" = half Calvin, half Arminius
     
  16. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perserverance is only a problem when people start trying to determine who is a child of God and who isn't based on their outward work. For instance, saying, "Joe has left the church and is shacked up with some woman, therefore he must never have been born again after all. If he had been, he would have perservered." That's a problem. A born again child of God has something in them that persists, and that person knows what he/she is supposed to be doing, but that person can still harden their hearts and be disobedient. I've preached to several people who had left the church but who are regenerate children of God. The whole time I was preaching they were crying. Why? Because the indwelling Spirit was convicting them. They were supposed to be in church and they knew it. Perhaps one day there will be repentance.

    God does not quit working in the lives of His dear little ones.
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are describing preservation, not perserverance. Perserverance by definition means to do something. It is works. Preservation is very different, it means we are kept by Jesus. If you are preserved, your salvation is kept by Jesus, not by "enduring to the end".

    Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15,16,18). You do not work for a free gift, all you can do is accept it. But if you must endure or perservere to keep salvation, then it is not a free gift.
     
  18. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    What do you do with a passage like Matthew 24:13?
    "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
     
  19. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I'd start by taking it in context.

    11: "Any many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
    12: "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
    13: "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
    14: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
    15: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"
    16: "Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:"
    17: "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:"
    18: "Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."

    What is the person that shall endure unto the end going to be saved from? Timely calamities. Deception is prevalent and iniquity abounds, but he that endures shall be saved from the coming judgement. In this case, Jesus refers to the deliverance of His people from the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. They saw the sign He gave them, understand it, and fled from that city before its destruction. They were saved.
     
  20. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks!
    ___
     

Share This Page

Loading...