Preterism...A Pox Upon Baptists & other denoms

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by robycop3, Jul 1, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Preterism is a false school of religious thought whose followers believe all Biblical prophecy was fulfilled on or before 70 AD. Preterists cite the facts of an evil Caesar (Nero), Jerusalem's being compassed by armies(the Roman army of Titus) and the temple's destruction, as well as that of the rest of Jerusalem by those Roman armies.

    Preterists rip Scriptures out of context to try to make them support their view. One they often cite is Matt. 24:34 where Jesus says, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." However, He clearly meant something besides that generation then alive, as He says in Matt. 23:35, "35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar." Now, THAT generation didn't murder Zechariah-that murder occurred some 400 years before Jesus was scolding those Pharisees. And this was a common practice in the Old Testament as well. Joseph, as he was about to die, said, “YOU(emphasis mine) shall carry my bones up from here” (Genesis 50:25). But THAT generation did NOT carry out that request-it happened over 400 years later. Malachi 4:5, the prophet says, “Behold, I am going to send to you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.” And THAT didn't occur until much later, if indeed it has yet occurred.

    Several Bible versions render 'this generation' as "the generation that sees all this", which is apparently what Jesus meant.

    Preterists believe that Nero was the "man of sin" who entered the temple and proclaimed himself God, which is the 'abomination of desolation'. Neither secular history, Jewish history, nor Scripture says Nero did this. Nor did Nero even come close to ruling the world. Whils Scripture centers upon Christ, Israel, and Jerusalem, the "Western Hemisphere", China, Siberia, Mongolia, Japan, Korea, etc. are as much a part of "the world" as the Roman Empire surrounding the Mediterranean Sea was, and its peoples are as important to Jesus as Israel is, when it comes to obtaining His salvation. There's not the slightest evidence from any source suggesting the Gospel in ancient times was carried east of the Volga River, nor across the Atlantic ocean.

    Also, the "mark of the beast", without which, a person could not conduct any business, has never been given by Nero nor any other ruler in history. Scripture is plain that this 'mark' will be upon the right hand, or forehead, presumably for people who don't have a right hand. Only within the last few years has such a 'mark' been possible, in the form of an implanted computer chip. Now, it's still pure speculation whether or not this mark will be such a chip, but for the first time in history IT IS NOW POSSIBLE, and by entirely-man-made means. Preterists can carp & holler all they wish, but the FACT is, there's NEVER been a universal 'mark of the beast' yet, since it hasn't before been possible(Tattoos, etc. can be altered), nor has there been a world ruler.

    But the worst, and mos-blasphemous of preterist beliefs is that CHRIST WILL NOT RETURN. They say there's no Scripture saying He will "return". BUT THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES SAYING HE WILL "COME"! Come WHERE? Since He left earth, and will be visible to all the people on earth when He comes, He can only be coming BACK TO EARTH to fulfill those prophecies! And there's a VAST amount of Scripture proclaiming His future return:

    (Cont. Next Post)
     
    #1 robycop3, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2014
  2. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

    Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you wil not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'

    Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

    Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

    Matthew 24: 36-39 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothng about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    Matthew 24:42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come."

    Mathew 26:64 "Yes it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

    Mark 8:36-38 What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with holy angels.

    Mark 13:26-27 At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    Mark 13:35-37 Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back - whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!'

    Mark 14:61-62 Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Might One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

    Luke 9:26-27 If anyone I fanyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

    Luke 17:28-30 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,292
    Likes Received:
    782
    That is right it is out right heresy.
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Luke 18:8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

    Luke 21:25-28 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift your heads, becasue your redemption is drawing near."

    John 14:1-4 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

    Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said. "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

    Acts 3:19-21 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you - even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

    1 Corinthians 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

    1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

    1 Corinthians 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

    1 Corinthians 15:23-24 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    Philippians 1:10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ - to the glory and praise of God.

    Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

    Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

    1 Thessalonians 1:9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

    1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? Indeed, you are our glory and joy.

    1 Thessalonians 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
     
  5. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should suprise you like a thief.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destory by the splendor of his coming.

    1 Timothy 6:13-16 I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time - God the blessed and only Ruler, the King of Kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

    2 Timothy 4:1-2 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage- with great patience and careful instruction.

    2 Timothy 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day - and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

    Titus 2:12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

    Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

    Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the day approaching.

    Hebrews 3:7 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.

    James 5:7-9 Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

    1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and ito an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvataion that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

    1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that though they acuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

    1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice that you participate in the suffering of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

    1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

    2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    2 Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is the 'coming' he promised?

    2 Peter 3:8-10 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is ike a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to peris, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; The elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

    1 John 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

    1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are like children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

    Jude 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

    Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

    Revelation 1:4 To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from who is, and who was, and who is to come,

    Revelation 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

    Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it.

    Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

    Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    Revelation 22:20-21 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

    And He won't return until the man called the beast, antichrist, & man of sin is revealed and come to power. And this is ONE SPECIFIC MAN, not a "class' of men, nor a symbol.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

    Remember, the Revelation was given to John in the early 90s AD, AFTER the temple & Jerusalem had been destroyed. And "soon" is a relative term to JESUS, to whom a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years.

    But it's UTTER BLASPHEMY to say He won't return!

    Yes, preterism is a FALSE SET OF DOCTRINES, invented wholly by MEN, and is a large signpost on the HIGHWAY TO HELL, as it rejects many Scriptures outright, while giving false, man-made meanings to others.
     
  6. JeremyV

    JeremyV
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    As you point out, Matthew 24:34 is one of the key passages that preterists point to. The interesting thing about this verse is that the verb "be fulfilled" has an unusual tense that doesn't exist in English. What makes it so unusual is that it doesn't say anything about the mode of the action. It could mean "be fulfilled" but it could also mean "being fulfilled" or begin to be fulfilled.

    The exact same phrase in the Greek is used in Luke 1. Here the angel tells Zacharias about John's conception and describes all the things that John would do. When Zacharias didn't believe, he was struck mute "...until the day that these things shall be performed..." The phrase here "these things shall be performed" is the same phrase as is used in Matthew 24:34. We latter learn that Zacharias spoke again when John was only a few days old, way before the angel's predictions had come true.

    This isn't a contradiction but a mistranslation. What the angel had said was "...until these things begin to take place..." The same is likely of Matthew 24:34. They would see those things begin to take place. Thy saw wars and rumors of wars. They also saw false Christ's. But this was just the start. Just look at Mathew 24:8, Jesus said that those were just the beginning.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    So roby, from all the vitriol and misrepresentation of preterism you've just spewed here, I take it you really hate preterists, eh? Kinda like Winman or Van or steaver towards the Calvinists, eh?
     
    #7 kyredneck, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2014
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    WRONG.

    "It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Concise Critical Comments on the Holy Bible, by Robert Young.

    In other words a 'stupid mistake' by Sulpicius Severus and others has resulted in A DOMINO EFFECT of bad information down through the centuries
     
    #8 kyredneck, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2014
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    This is just so wrong, in no way does orthodox Preterism hold that ALL prophecy was fulfilled then. You really needed to do some more research before striking off in this direction you've taken. Orthodox Preterism is nothing less than a sound hermeneutical tool that adheres closely to a very basic rule of scripture interpretation:

    The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed. - Charles Hodge

    ....something that Dispensationalists have totally ignored and have failed miserably at. They prefer the adrenaline rush of fantastical sci-fi futuristic sensational speculation over sound Biblical interpretation.
     
    #9 kyredneck, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2014
  10. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Well, actually, we're all SLIGHTLY preteristic, as we know the predicted destruction of Jerusalem & the temple occurred in 70 AD. However, many events Jesus prophesied in the Olivet Discourse have NOT yet occurred, and no stretcha the imagination can fill in the blanx with historical events. To-wit:

    NO world-ruling antichrist

    NO abomination of desolation, that is, the antichrist entering the temple & declaring himself God.

    NO marka the beast.

    NO great tribulation.

    NO shaking of the powers of heaven since Hezekiah's day when the sun retreated on its course.

    Most of all, NO physical, visible return of JESUS. He specifically warned against believing those who say He is here or there, as ALL would see His return.
     
  11. JeremyV

    JeremyV
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are many arguments for a late date. Here are just a few.

    Polycarp wrote that the Smyrnaeans weren't believers in the time Paul. This seems to be born-out by the fact that Paul never makes mention of a church in his writings. Was John writing to a church that didn't exist?

    Paul wrote to the Colossians (around AD 60) that God had great zeal for church at Laodicea. Yet in revelation God desires to spew them out (Rev. 3:16). Did the church fall so far in only five years?

    At the time that Revelation was written, the church at Laodicea believed themselves to be rich (Rev. 3: 17). This would be unlikely if they were not physically wealthy. The problem is that the entire city of Laodicea was destroyed around AD 60 and there is archeological evidence that the rebuilding took nearly thirty years. It is doubtful that this church would have called themselves rich for a while.

    I must take issue with this. Basic preterism is not a tool it is a system of interpretation which concludes that all of Revelation and the Olivet discourse were fulfilled by the end of the first century. Those that think only part of this has been fulfilled are called a partial-preterist. This is simply the way these terms are defined. At least that is the way the professor of my eschatology class defined them and he was a preterist.

    I would certainly hope that no one tries to take the scriptures "in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed." This is not a basic rule of scripture interpretation. Instead it is a big mistake. It is the writer that was inspired, not the audience. We cannot look to the fallible to interpret the infallible. How many times did the disciple misunderstand the words of Jesus before they were themselves inspired? How about the religious leaders that heard him speak? Instead we must try to take the scriptures in the sense that the author intended them to be taken. This does not inherently lead to the preterist position.
     
  12. RLBosley

    RLBosley
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where does partial preterism fit into this discussion? Or is it's existence even acknowledged?
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    You could use a stretcha serious unbiased research into historical events to fill in the blanks with FACTS in lieu of FICTION.

    Fictional sensationalism. (or sensational fiction, whatever)

    For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 Jn 7

    A ‘historical event’, nearly two millennia ago.

    When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

    A ‘historical event’, nearly two millennia ago.

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
    3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1
    16 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead;
    17 and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name. Rev 13
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand. Rev 22

    A ‘historical event’, nearly two millennia ago.

    21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

    A ‘historical event’, nearly two millennia ago.

    18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven. Lu 10

    Christ defeated the works of the devil, the house of the strong man has been breached, he was bound, and his goods spoiled.

    But, that’s not to say that he hasn’t already been loosed again, because he must needs be loosed for a little while. Rev 20:3

    Ah, the most holy sacred cherished hallowed cow of the physical visible return. Orthodox Preterists still await the coming of 1 Cor 15.
     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    When closely scrutinized the late date theory is a house of cards.

    Partial Preterism also known as Orthodox Preterism

    Egad.

    So you're actually asserting that audience relevance is not relevant? Unbelievable.

    Done here.

    It's acknowledged now.
     
  15. RLBosley

    RLBosley
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    'preciate it. :D

    I hadn't read all the responses before posting, so I missed that you had brought up orthodox preterism. I generally am a historicist but lean partial-preterism on certain texts. I just don't think there is anyway around that with certain places (the OD for example) without totally butchering what is being said.
     
  16. JeremyV

    JeremyV
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can just as easily say that on close scrutiny the early date theory is a house of cards. Blanket statements like this are easy to make. As my state motto says, "show me." If I am wrong, I would like to know it.

    I must withdraw my objection on this point. I am unfamiliar with this term and it through me for a loop. As it stands, I must question the validity of the name, but that is a semantic issue and neither here nor there. If partial preterists prefer to be called "orthodox" preterists, so be it. At least I have a I have better idea of where you are coming from.

    The audience is very important as far as what the author intended for them to understand. We must keep in mind that Jesus was talking to his Disciples in the Olivet Discourse and that John was writing to the Christians of Asia Minor in the first century in Revelation. How the audience actually understood it is quite irrelevant. If it was then we would have to understand John 2:18-20 as referring to the destruction of the literal temple. Giving so much emphasis in interpretation to the thoughts of a very fallible audience is irresponsible and illogical. As I said, the author is inspired not the audience.
     
  17. JeremyV

    JeremyV
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    I find that all historicists are partial preterists (myself included) and they are not the only ones. Even robycop3 admits to being partially preterist.
     
  18. RLBosley

    RLBosley
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    Probably true. Like I said, I don't see how you could get around it.
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    Yea, but it wouldn't be true. I stated a fact, late date doesn't bear scrutiny.

    Yea, that's what I said:

    "The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed. - Charles Hodge"
     
  20. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,126
    Likes Received:
    320
    It is difficult for preterists to exegete the following passages (among many others) without the reality of a literal and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth (even to the place from whence He left, the Mount of Olives)...

    When did these things happen before AD70?

    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    ....

    Or these?

    16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
    21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

    Been to Jerusalem to the feast of Tabernacle lately?


    HankD
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...