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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Dr. Bob, Oct 22, 2004.
Non-baptists got into a discussion in the baptist-only area, so moving it here.
Another post moved here to help jump-start the discussion:
I'm not sure if I'm a preterist or not - all I know is I'm definitely not dispensational/futurist in my views. But, another "time" scripture that seems to support the preterist position is Revelation 1:1 ('to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;'). I think the time references are where the "literal" futurists have a problem.
Some "preterism" makes great sense, especially with respect to the "little apocalypse". I don't see nearly such a good fit when applying full preterism to Revelation, which in many places seems inescapably futurist. Seeing the destruction of the temple as the fulfillment of Jesus' predictions is quite cogent and in truth fits quite nicely. To see Revelation as pre-70AD is a little difficult to begin with not to mention the clear judgment themes later on.
Yes, I would have some difficulty with the full-preterist crowd as well. I think we can safely say that AD70 was at least a "type" of end. For isntance, Joshua was not the anticipated messiah but a type that gave us a hint of the messiah...just like Joseph (in Genesis) and so on. Whether AD70 was the fulfillment or only a foreshadowing of the actual later events I'm not sure...I tend to lean more toward it being a foreshadowing of the end. I'm still not a futurist, I just don't know that I can say Revelation is describing only one period of history or more all at the same time - God is quite capable of doing that and it would certainly explain why there is some difficulty in pinpointing it - but then again, isn't there supposed to be some difficulty since none of us knows the hour or the day? To me, that's the biggest problem with the futurist camp - the constant belief that predicting the time is just a few more verses of study away as if there were some secret coded message and all we need is the right decoder pin.
Warren was right! In EVERY instance where "this generation" is used always referred to the contemporary generation of Jesus' time, except, as explained by Futurists, when it is used in an eschatological context. How rediculous!!! How inconsistant!!! It shows what measure some people will go to in distorting the Word of God to force it to fit in the box of their view! Why can't they ALWAYS take Jesus at what He said? He said "this generation" so by God it WAS that generation! No twisting, bending, omitting, or stretching needed. He meant what he said and said what He meant. If you feel you must re-interpret what Jesus meant, then you are placing yourself ABOVE Him!!! This is a problem with MANY of the Futurist's explaination of eschatological passages; they will not conform to their view of thinking! Some advice: Do not try to out think the Holy Spirit -- you will lose!
Now I must ask, if you think that you have proven everything in revelation occured 2000 years ago... What have you won?
Victory NOW!!! Not victory sometime in the future. I have been redeemed NOW!!! I don't have to wait for the future. God HAS fulfilled the promises that He said He would and WHEN He said He would! He has not just given me a PARTIAL promise to something He promised us as a total and complete victory. Was God unable to fulfill His promise to us? Did He change that what was already promised and written? I am comforted NOW! I do not have to WAIT for some cataclysmic event to tranpire to have that happen. Thank God that He is true to His Word!!!
That was a good question!
You are posing a logical false dilemma.
I am a futurist. That does not mean I don't or cannot believe in God being true to His Word.
Somehow in your comments I am reminded of the fairytale, "The Emperor and His New Clothes". In your joy that God has fulfilled ALL His promises to you NOW, have you NEVER thought you want a refund on your resurrection body or wondered where your resurrected family members are? There are obviously SOME future events still to come. I don't THINK we disagree on whether there are ANY future events to come, just on how many.
You are sadly mistaken. I am NOT in my resurrection body at this time. I will get that at death when I put off this fleshly corrupt body. Only those faithful whom have run the race and endured to the end at death will put off this earthly body and recieve their spiritual resurrected body. To be in a state for this to happen NOW would in itself require a fulfillment of scripture. And consequently, I am NOW in His Kingdom (The New Jerusalem, The Bride of Christ, The Church) just as He had promised to those whom He initially spoke to (Matt.4:17;16:28; Col.1:13;etc.).
The futurist view just can not logically answer these "soon", "near", "about to"(Gk.mello) time statements that are presented in the Bible! I just recently heard one fluttering, trying to explain Matthew 16:27,28, trying HARD to form and comform it and squeeze it into their veiws box. There are MANY such passages for futurists interpretation that elude all sound biblical hermeneutics. And if you like on a FUTURE post I can present them to you one by one, so that you can give me your best futurist interpretation, then we can compare notes. I love talking about eschatology. It is a subject that I have been studying for quite some time. As a matter of fact I have done some intense study in ALL the various major eschatological viewpoints.
OK, so victory now means what? You can sin all you want because the judgment already happened? I really cant see any reason to believe that I am living in the kingdom now. Do you have something that I am missing?
Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Do you have a lion that eats grass?
For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Do you have singing mountains and clapping trees? Why are these trees clapping anyway??
12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Was the world judged in AD 70? Because He is coming to judge the world, not just Jerusalem. AD 70 was a picnic compared to the end that is to come.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
How could you think that this was already fulfilled? Once you have hermeneutered all the warnings out of the bible, you don't have many promises left either, do you.
Eschatologist said "You are sadly mistaken. I am NOT in my resurrection body at this time. I will get that at death when I put off this fleshly corrupt body."
So then everyone in the grave has been waiting for you to die to start the resurrection?
1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I don't know what promises you have received, but I'm going to hold out on claiming I am living in the kingdom until I see something that might cause me to think otherwise.
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
This is what I want to see.
Have you seen any nursing infants playing harmlessly with poisonous snakes lately? What about lions and calves lying down together?
First off, I'm not quite so preterist leaning as eschatologist but I think before you dismiss the idea it would be good to study the subject in some depth. A very good book from the preterist position is: The Parousia by James Russell.
Amen, Sister Karen -- Preach it!
Eschatologist: "Only those faithful whom have run the race and endured to the end at death will put off this earthly body and recieve their spiritual resurrected body."
Eschatologist: "Victory NOW!!! Not victory sometime in the future. I have been redeemed NOW!!! I don't have to wait for the future. God HAS fulfilled the promises that He said He would ... "
Your statements contradict each other.
You say "God HAS fulfilled the promises that HE
said He would ... " and yet you list a promise
that is FUTURIST, i.e. yet to be fulfilled.
Strangely, God will fulfill all His promises
to you for, being Christ's possession, you have
been redeemed and will be glorfied with the new
body. All you have left to do before you die
is submit daily to the sanctification salvation.
Like all other salvations, sanctification salvation,
comes from Christ. You do have to submit to it
and you will submit to it because Christ has given
you justification salvation already.
You will run the race and endure to the end because
"Christ in you, the hope of glory" will cause you
This then is the source of happiness, the assurance
of total 100% salvation.
Many people squash this verse, which Jesus said:
Matthew 24:13 (HCSB):
But the one who endures to the end, this one will be delivered.
This says if one will endure to the end.
then that one will be saved.
What does it say of the one who does not endur
to the end? NOTHING
THat would be a different propostion altogether
and would need it's own proof. Jesus says
if one endures to the end, then they will be saved.
Jesus does not speak here of the one that does
not endure to the end.
In fact, 1 Thesalonians 4 was written to those who
said "Poor Calab, he was sold out to Christ, but
he didn't endure to the end when Christ Comes,
for he got weak and died". Paul put a stop to
that, for the human being death is "the end" of this
No my friends who are soon to be futurist,
Jesus saves to the uttermost,
His salvation of us is as complete the day we are
first saved, as the day of the resurrection/rapture
when we get our new body as we are today, as we
will be the 7 billioth year of eternity.
I'm sure that we've had this discussion before. There is NO contridiction! The salvation plan that was promised as early back as Genesis has been fulfilled. If you do not understand what Paul meant when he said he had to run the race and endure to the end (and that we all must do likewise), I don't know if I can help you! Salvation is only a guarantee to those who obey(Heb.5:9). This does NOT meant that because the promises have been fulfilled that you can go on sinning as supposed by someone earlier! That is preposterous!!! Paul's answer to this question was, "May it never be!"
I went back and forth with you over fulfillment theology before, and I believe that you never did give an adequate answer to the usage of words such as "soon", "near", and "about to" (Gk.mello) when they are used in eschatological passages. What does amaze me though, are how quickly futurists are to reply to someone with fulfillment theology and question their reasoning, yet offer very little to answer what the Preterist position offers! I have at on time in my studies been a Futurist, Idealist, and Historicist prior to accepting the Preterist view. I dedicated my study to examine ALL such views and compare them with the Word of God, not against the 'Left Behind" series or what some man at the Dallas Theological Seminary posits. Am I interested or intertained by what they have to say? Usually, but it is the Bible which must be the ultimate and final authority to any such issues!
If you believe all these that you mentioned are 'literal' then let me burst your bubble! If you would like I will provide you with numerous examples where allegorical language as these that were used to symbolize the demise of Judah and Jerusalem by invading armies, and Cows eating with Lions were meant to symbolize peaceful situations. That being said, if you believe in these cataclysmic events to be 'literal', then the Earth must have been destroyed and re-created several times since its original creation. That definitly doesn't make much sense!
How do you know that you being raised up in a resurrected body was not just symbolic of you getting religious before you become wormfood? You pick and choose what is literal and what is not. Any scriptures about Israel that were not fulfilled to the letter in the past will be fulfilled to the letter in the future. Certainly the earth may have been destroyed in the past. Did Noah not escape just such a destruction by the building of an ark? Or was the global flood that destroyed all mankind just a spiritual picture of something more mundane? Maybe Noah spilled a glass of water, and that fulfilled the prophecy of the coming destruction, and the ark was not really a big boat, but rather a large, handmade papertowel.
Eschatologist: " If you do not understand what Paul meant when he said he had to run the race and endure to the end (and that we all must do likewise), I don't know if I can help you!"
The Bible teaches:
If you are God's, then you will endure to the end.
Eschatologist: "Salvation is only a guarantee to those who obey(Heb.5:9)."
The Holman Christian Standard Bible
Hebrews 5:9 (HCSB):
After He was perfected, He became the source
of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
if you have the eternal salvation Christ gives;
then you obey Him
Eschatologist: "This does NOT meant that because the promises have been fulfilled that you can go on sinning as supposed by someone earlier! That is preposterous!!!"
Amen, Brother Eschatologist -- Preach it!!
You know I love ya brother Ed,
But what now has reared its ugly head is the 'once saved always saved' issue, and I do not think it would be appropiate to tackle that issue here. Yet I would still be interested in your understanding of these key words in these key passages (i.e. soon, near, and about to). These would be relevant to this topic!
Love you too, Bro Iconoclast
2 Peter 3:8 (HCSB):
Dear friends, don't let this one thing escape
you: with the Lord one day is like 1,000 years,
and 1,000 years like one day.
I'd say anytime this week would be soon,
near, etc. Only two of God's days have gone
by since Jesus went to Heaven.