Preterism v. God's Plan for our future

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ed Edwards, Nov 25, 2004.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Preterism v. God's Plan for our future

    What is God's Plan for various parts of
    mankind as denoted in the Old Testament (OT)
    and New Testament (NT)? Do a significant
    portion of those plans include we who
    are Christians right now or are we working on
    other plans not specified in the Bible?


    Here are some outlines of the time from
    Pentacost to the end of this age, to the
    end of future ages, to the end of the world.
    Varius groups i've seen on this board
    have various (yet similar) viewpoints of
    what the Holy Bible says on this matter:

    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues -- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib pre-mill outline:

    0. church age continues -- you are here
    2. Tribulation time
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues - is the same as: -- you are here
    2. Tribulation time - is the same as: -- you are here
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom -- you are here
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Peterist a-trib a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues --- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection -done happened
    2. Tribulation time --- or maybe you are here
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event -done happend
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom -done happened
    5. new heaven & new earth --- or maybe you are here

    Which do you think is closes to the
    way things are going to come down
    (or already came down)?

    Pretrib, post-trib, and a-trib refer
    to the location in time of the rapture
    of the saints relative to the Tribulation
    Period.

    Pre-mill, post-mill, and a-mill refer
    to the location in time of the Second
    Advent of the Lord to His Millinnial
    Kingdom. I've never seen a post-mill post
    in this fourm.
     
  2. Warren

    Warren
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    Frank,

    Yep, the first cent. generation. All 3 questions were closely related. That's why al three were fulfilled at the same time.

    Warren
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    This is a similar post to one i made on
    a Baptist only Forum. I repeat it largely
    here. I'll respond to responces here
    but not there.

    I find these variation among various eschatologies:

    1. The meaning of "Day" and "day" in 2 Peter 3:10

    2 Peter 3:10 (HCSB):
    But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief;
    on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise,
    the elements will burn and be dissolved,
    and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.


    2. The meaning of "Day" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (HCSB)
    Don't let anyone deceive you in any way.
    For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes
    first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

    3. The meaning of "apostasy" (HCSB) or "fall away" (KJV1769)
    in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (HCSB)
    Don't let anyone deceive you in any way.
    For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes
    first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV1769):
    Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


    4. The meaning of "first" in Revelation 20:6

    Revelation 20:6 (HCSB):
    Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!
    The second death has no power over these,
    but they will be priests of God and the Messiah,
    and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.

    5. The meaning of the first "and" in Matthew 24:31

    Matthew 24:31 (HCSB):
    He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet,
    and they will gather His elect from the four winds,
    from one end of the sky to the other.

    Interesting, the HCSB doesn't translate the Greek KAI that
    starts this verse???

    Matthew 24:31 (KJV1769):
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
    and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
    from one end of heaven to the other.

    -Interesting, the difference between eschatologies
    is the meaning of a few key words
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    These three questions?

    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc&gt;)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    Whats wrong Ed? Is it to tough a question? Is the new Heavens and New Earth of Rev. the same as the ones found in II Peter3 and Is. 65 and 66? And how does it fit into your little chart?

    Each place that "new Heavens and new Earth" appears
    it referes to a physical reality, not a spiritual
    reality. "new Heavens and new Earth"
    is a Hebrew idiom refering to the physical realm.

    (BTW "new heavens and new earth" and
    "new heaven and new earth" have the same meaning.)

    Is. chapters 65 and 67 refer to "new Heaven(s) and new Earth".

    Isa 65:17 (HCSB):
    "For I will create a new heaven and a new earth;
    the past events will not be remembered or come to mind.

    Isa 66:22 (HCSB):
    "For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
    which I will make,
    will endure before Me"-the Lord's declaration-
    "so will your offspring and your name endure.

    Revelation 21:1-2 (HCSB):
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,
    for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
    and the sea existed no longer.
    2 I also saw the Holy City, new Jerusalem,
    coming down out of heaven from God,
    prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

    Here is my outline of God's plan for time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The new heaven & new earth here is the one in
    Revelation 21:1-2.
    I will need to study Isaiah and see if it is the
    same new heaven & new earth.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    Last days, last day, end time, end times word study
    in KJV12769):

    "Last days" references KJV (3-OT, 5 NT)

    Ge 49:1 (KJV1769):
    And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves
    together, that I may tell you that which shall befall
    you in the last days].

    Isa 2:2 (KJV1769):
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

    Mic 4:1 (KJV1769):
    But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

    Ac 2:17 (KJV1769):
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    2Ti 3:1 (KJV1769):
    This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    Heb 1:2 (KJV1769):
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
    whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Jas 5:3 (KJV1769):
    Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

    2Pe 3:3 (KJV1769):
    Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

    "End time" and "end times" are NOT found in the KJV1769


    -----
    "Last day" in the KJV1769:

    Click Verse for Commentary Notes

    Ne 8:18 (KJV1769):
    Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.

    Joh 6:39 (KJV1769):
    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    Joh 6:40 (KJV1769):
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Joh 6:44 (KJV1769):
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Joh 6:54 (KJV1769):
    Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Joh 7:37 (KJV1769):
    In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

    Joh 11:24 (KJV1769):
    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    Joh 12:48 (KJV1769):
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    2 Thessalonians 1:4-7 (HCSB):

    Therefore we ourselves boast about you among God's churches--about
    your endurance and faith in all the persecutions and
    afflictions you endure.
    5 It is a clear evidence of God's righteous judgment that
    you will be counted worthy of God's kingdom, for which
    you also are suffering,
    6 since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction
    those who afflict you,
    7 and to reward with rest you who are afflicted,
    along with us. [This will take place] at the revelation
    of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels,

    This is about the tribulation of suffering for being
    a Christian. The last judgement for evil on this earth
    is at the revelation of the Lord Jesus at the end
    of the Tribulation period. Again, distinguish between
    the Tribulation period and human travial type tribulation,
    the condition. This does not contradict the
    pretribulation rapture and pre-millinnial Second Coming.
    It does contradict preteritism as nobody has seen a
    physical Lord Jesus coming from heaven with His physical
    powerful angels.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This statement was from
    Grasshopper in another Baptist-Only Forum.
     
  9. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    ED

    Yes, the first question on the temple's destruction was fufilled 70 AD.

    Probably the answer to question 2&3 is the same sign (v.30), which is the rider on the white horse, Rev. 19:16.

    Mt. 13:39 has the harvest as the end of the age where the "harvesters are angels." This harvest probably is the Sheep and Goat judgement in Mt. 25:31-46. The wheat or sheep will be gathered into his barn or kingdom and the weeds or goats thrown into "fiery furnace" or "eternal fire."

    I believe Mt. 24 has a duel fulfillment, a partial near term in the 70 AD destruction and a far off complete fulfillment in the Trib.

    Imagine the Church age never existing, you could attach the Trib on to Mt. 24 and have a continuous fulfillment. What do you think?

    Also read 24 from this perspective, that judgments of the Trib period are repeated twice, in verses 4-14 as the first time and verses 15-30 as the second time. The end comes in verse 14 and so does it when Jesus returns in verse 30.
     
  10. Warren

    Warren
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    Ed,

    All three questions were flatly stated to be fulfilled before 'this generation" had passed. The question, then, is WHAT generation? OBVIOUSLY, the thenpresent generation. Ed, your "church age" parameters for "this generation" flies in the face of other references and also Matt.1:1-17, were 42 generations (same word genea) are given, wuith each of those generations defined by a given lifespan in the text. So you are fundamentally and foundationally WRONG in all of your assertions.

    I think anyone can see that I am right and Ed is wrong.

    Warren
     
  11. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Eusebious stated in his history that John was sent to Patmos under the reign of Domitian. That would place the writing of Revelation 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and therefore, the entire Preterism comedy comes crashing down.
     
  12. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    [​IMG] Daniel the vampire slayer, you sure know how to drive a stake. [​IMG]
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib (elsewhere): "None mentioned on 'a thousand years'
    find anywhere in the Old Testament speaking of Messiah
    shall reign on earth in Jerusalem."

    Isaiah 9:6-7 (HCSB)

    For a child will be born for us,
    a son will be given to us,
    and the government will be on His shoulders.
    He will be named
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 The dominion will be vast,
    and its prosperity will never end.
    He will reign on the throne of David
    and over his kingdom,
    to establish and sustain it
    with justice and righteousness from now on and forever.
    The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this

    When will Jesus rule on the throne of David?

    Isaiah 24:23 (HCSB)

    The moon will be put to shame
    and the sun disgraced,
    because the Lord of Hosts will reign as king
    on Mount Zion in Jerusalem
    ,
    and He will [display His] glory
    in the presence of His elders.

    Who is this Lord of Hosts? When will Jesus
    rule in Jerusalem? Mount Zion refers to the
    place where the Chikiniah (sp?) glory of God rests
    (in the Temple).

    Revelation 20:6 (HCSB):

    Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!
    The second death has no power over these,
    but they will be priests of God and the Messiah,
    and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.

    Note "Him" refers to "God and the Messiah" and thus
    means Jesus. Jesus will reign for 1,000 years.
    Where will Jesus reign?
    Upon whose throne shall Jesus reign?

    Instant replay of the questions asked here:

    When will Jesus rule on the throne of David?
    When will Jesus rule in Jerusalem?
    Where will Jesus reign?
    Upon whose throne shall Jesus reign?

    My answer to 2+3 here is = 5.
    Jesus will rule on the physical throne of
    David in physical Jerusalem through His Millinnial
    Kingdom.

    But i note that none of these verses say
    DIRECTLY what I concluded. Howerver, they do add up
    to what i said.
     
  14. Warren

    Warren
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    Daniel David:

    Eusebius was sincerely wrong. The evidence for the late date is based on one, lone, misuderstood quote from Iranaeus.

    The internal and external evidences for a pre-70 date are overwhelming. It all pointed to the destruction of Jerusalem - the whore - as seen in Rev.17-18. The Olivet Discourse parallels Revelation, and even dispies agree to that. And what does the Olivet Discourse center on? - None other than the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

    Warren
     
  15. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Do I believe Warren or someone who had access to the earliest possible records? Hmmmmmm.

    Well, it is tough Warren, but I must side against you on this.

    There is NO evidence for a pre70 dating.
     
  16. Charles Meadows

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    Warren,

    I think you're overstating it a little. There are reasons to see Revelation as pre-70 but they are FAR from overwhelming.

    Perhaps the greatest single reason is the Olivet discourse which very likely does refer to the fall of the Temple.

    But the situation is not the same for Revelation. There is the evidence of Eusebius and Irenaeus (and likely from Clement and Origen as well), the significance of Babylon (Rome much more likely), and the lack of evidence of Christian persecution in Asia minor during Nero's reign.

    Pre-70 date evidence (666, the seven kings [Beale], and Rev 1:7) seem a little more strained.
     
  17. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    Hey Warren, I've been in your town before. Our family had relatives in McGregor, Ia. across the Mississippi River from you. We rented a cabin on the river in the late 50's, and went there every year to see the fall colors. I remember eating dinner in a cafe on the main drag in your town, I flicked a kernel of corn with my finger and it landed in the coffee cup of a brawny dude next to me, man did he give me a dirty look.

    "What does the Olivet Discourse center on"?

    Answer: Israel during the day of the Lord.
     
  18. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    Is Praire du chien far from Madison, WI? Stopped there to eat once on a boating trip from Davenport, IA.
     
  19. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    Directly west of Madison. God bless
     
  20. Warren

    Warren
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    Charles,

    Great to hear you have been in my town. MacGregor is right across the river, and I've been there many times. I think Wisconsin is the greatest place in the world to live. Very beautiful.

    No tribulation upon the Asia Minor Saints before 70 A.D.??? Huh?? What about NERO'S PERSECUTION (63-68)?? Rev.1:9 said that the saints were already in tribulation - likely NERO'S PERSECUTION. The Jews were a big part of this New Testament perscution of the saints, being in cahoots with the Roman authorities to hurt the saints. But things turned on them in A.D. 66.

    Madison is 2 hours from Prairie du Chien. Been there many times. I'm from Richland Center, Wisconsin, about an hour from Prairie. Anyone been there? It's about an hour from Madison on Hwy 14.

    Warren
     

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