Preterist? Do I get this Right?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Bro.Bill, Jun 3, 2004.

  1. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill
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    Do I understand it correctly that Preterists believe all Bible prophecy was fulfilled by 70A.D. and that Our Lord returned then? What is a good definition of Preterist theology?
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    That is correct. Here is a definition by Kenneth Davies:

    According to Webster's Dictionary, a Preterist is "a theologian who believes that the prophecies of the Apocalypse have already been fulfilled." In the most basic terms, a Preterist believes that all the prophecies of the Bible were fulfilled by the end of the first century AD (usually by AD 70), and those prophecies have continuing results (effects) today. For instance, when Jesus began His preaching, He proclaimed that the kingdom of God was "at hand." The kingdom "came with power" in A.D. 70 (Mk. 9:1) and continues to exist in power today.
     
  3. Bugman

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    That would be the definition of a Full Preterist, a Partial Preterist believes some of the phrophicies have been fulfilled.

    Bryan
    SDG
     
  4. Pete Richert

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    Speaking of which, Grasshopper, could you point me to a good introduction to preterism. I would want one to partial preterism though, oh, are you full or paritial?

    Well anyway, hopefully something that is lucid, scriptually tied, not a reaction to an attack so we can't understand unless we read the attack or the dude has got a chip on his shoulder, etc. Something in the 200 page range maybe.

    Thanks
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Partial preterists bother me more than the full preterists. The "full" ones are easily proven in error or so "mystical" and "allegorical" that the position becomes nonsense.

    "Partials" have got the wonderful liberty to "pick and choose" almost at random what prophecies they claim as "fulfilled" and what are "still to be" fulfilled.

    Get a tough question you can't handle (as a full preterist)? Just say it isn't fulfilled yet. You become a god to interpret prophecy any way you feel like!
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    I'm full. 2 books from the partial-pret position I really got alot out of were:

    "Last Days Maddness" by Gary DeMar This is the book that begin to lead me out of fantasy land(Pre-Mill)

    "The Last Days According to Jesus" by RC Sproul. He compares partial-pret to full-pret in this book.

    Both are easy reads.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Pete,

    Allow me to reccommend the following books:

    1. Revelation: Four Views by Steven Gregg (Objective Commentary of all four major views of prophecy)

    and

    2. Beyond the End Times: The Rest of the Greatest Story Ever Told by John Noe (Not objective, definitely pro-preterist point of view).

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    thanks boys.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Kind of like amills and post mills ... :D
     
  10. Grasshopper

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    Amill and post mills are partial preterist.
     
  11. Bro.Bill

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    I have to admit,I am a pre-trib rapture young earth guy.Until I signed up on this board I did'nt even know there were Baptists who were or are otherwise.

    I've read the Bible from cover to cover many times.I've read and studied doctrine and hermanuetics by Hatrill,Walvoord,Evans,Chafer,Ryrie and others. The amill,post-trib,partial or full preterist just don't make sense to me. I think I'm on solid ground. What sound Biblical teaching is there that would change my mind?
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Start with the Olivet Discourse. I think it is Matthew 24. Read the entire thing.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    Well if you just read those guys, of course your not going to see anything different.
     
  14. Bro.Bill

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    I also read J Dwight Pentecost,Mathew Heny,Gill,Spurgeon,Ironside,Barnes,Jensen,Torrey,Pink,Calvin,Strong,Finney, and others.
     
  15. Bro.Bill

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    Mathew 24 does'nt lead me to believe that Christ returned in 70 A.D.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    It shouldn't either. You would only reach that conclusion if words have no meaning and you get to invent things.
     
  17. Bethelassoc

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    Bro Bill:

    You might want to add Gary DeMar to your list of authors if you are looking into pret stuff.
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    Joseph is correct, start with the Olivet Discourse. Read all 3 accounts in Matt, Mark and Luke. I think you will find it clearly speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Here are some commentaries on some of the men you've read. Notice what the prevailing thought was pre-1900:

    Albert Barnes

    (On Matthew 24:27 ; Nature of Christ's Return )
    "..the destruction of Jerusalem is described as his coming..."

    (On Matthew 10:23)
    "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, &c. That is, in fleeing from persecutors from one city to another, you shall not have gone to every city in Judea till the end of Jewish economy shall come." (in loc.)

    (On Matthew 24:15)
    "This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews. Ac. x. 28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Lu, xxi. 20. The Roman army is further called the abomination on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honours" (p. 254)

    (On Matthew 24:16)
    "It is said that there is reason to believe that not one Christian perished in the destruction of that city, God having in various ways secured their escape, so that they fled to Pella, where they dwelt when the city was destroyed."


    John Gill

    (On Matthew 24:16)
    "...it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made, and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over to Jordan, as Eusebius says, to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few months after, there was not a Christian in the city . . " (John Gill, on Matthew 24:16).

    (On Matthew 24:26)
    "It was usual for these imposters to lead their followers into deserts, pretending to work wonders in such solitary places: so during the siege, Simon, the son of Giora, collected together many thousands in the mountains and desert parts of Judaea; and the above-mentioned Jonathan, after the destruction of the city, lead great multitudes into the desert: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not; or should others say, behold, or for certain, the Messiah is in some one of the secret and fortified places of the temple; where, during some time of the siege, were John and Eleazar, the heads of the zealots; do not believe them. Some reference may be had to the chamber of secrets, which was in the temple; 'for in the sanctuary there were two chambers; one was called ... the chamber of secrets, and the other the chamber of vessels' " (John Gill, on Matthew 24:26).

    (On Matthew 24:29)
    Ver. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, &c.] That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment: for all that is said to account for such a sense, as that it was usual with the prophets to speak of judgments afar off as near; and that the apostles often speak of the coming of Christ, the last judgment, and the end of the world, as just at hand; and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word "immediately", or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, #Mt 24:34 and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple.
    Shall the sun be darkened: not in a literal but in a figurative sense; and is to be understood not of the religion of the Jewish church; nor of the knowledge of the law among them, and the decrease of it; nor of the Gospel being obscured by heretics and false teachers; nor of the temple of Jerusalem, senses which are given into by one or another; but of the Shekinah, or the divine presence in the temple. The glory of God, who is a sun and a shield, filled the tabernacle, when it was reared up; and so it did the temple, when it was built and dedicated; in the most holy place, Jehovah took up his residence; here was the symbol of his presence, the mercy seat, and the two cherubim over it: and though God had for some time departed from this people, and a voice was heard in the temple before its destruction, saying, "let us go hence"; yet the token of the divine presence remained till the utter destruction of it; and then this sun was wholly darkened, and there was not so much as the outward symbol of it:
    and the moon shall not give her light; which also is to be explained in a figurative and metaphorical sense; and refers not to the Roman empire, which quickly began to diminish; nor to the city of Jerusalem; nor to the civil polity of the nation; but to the ceremonial law, the moon, the church is said to have under her feet, #Re 12:1 so called because the observance of new moons was one part of it, and the Jewish festivals were regulated by the moon; and especially, because like the moon, it was variable and changeable. Now, though this, in right, was abolished at the death of Christ, and ceased to give any true light, when he, the substance, was come; yet was kept up by the Jews, as long as their temple was standing; but when that was destroyed, the daily sacrifice, in fact, ceased, and so it has ever since; the Jews esteeming it unlawful to offer sacrifice in a strange land, or upon any other altar than that of Jerusalem; and are to this day without a sacrifice, and without an ephod:
    and the stars shall fall from heaven; which phrase, as it elsewhere intends the doctors of the church, and preachers falling off from purity of doctrine and conversation; so here it designs the Jewish Rabbins and doctors, who departed from the word of God, and set up their traditions above it, fell into vain and senseless interpretations of it, and into debates about things contained in their Talmud; the foundation of which began to be laid immediately upon their dispersion into other countries:
    and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; meaning all the ordinances of the legal dispensation; which shaking, and even removing of them, were foretold by #Hag 2:6 and explained by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, #Heb 12:26,27 whereby room and way were made for Gospel ordinances to take place, and be established; which shall not be shaken, so as to be removed, but remain till the second coming of Christ. The Jews themselves are sensible, and make heavy complaints of the great declensions and alterations among them, since the destruction of the temple; for after having taken notice of the death of several of their doctors, who died a little before, or after that; and that upon their death ceased the honour of the law, the splendour of wisdom, and the glory of the priesthood, they add {g};
    ``from the time that the temple was destroyed, the wise men, and sons of nobles, were put to shame, and they covered their heads; liberal men were reduced to poverty; and men of violence and calumny prevailed; and there were none that expounded, or inquired, or asked. R. Elezer the great, said, from the time the sanctuary were destroyed, the wise men began to be like Scribes, and the Scribes like to the Chazans, (or sextons that looked after the synagogues,) and the Chazans like to the common people, and the common people grew worse and worse, and there were none that inquired and asked;''
    that is, of the wise men there were no scholars, or very few that studied in the law.
    {g} Misn. Sotah, c. 9. sect. 15.

    Matthew Henry

    (On Matthew 24:1-3)
    "Jesus speak of it (the temple) as an utter ruin. The temple shall not only be stripped, and plundered, and defaced, but utterly demolished and laid waste; Not one stone shall be left unto another. Though Titus, when he took the city, did all he could to preserve the temple, yet he could not restrain the enraged soldiers from destroying it utterly; and it was done to that degree, that Turnus Rufus ploughed up the ground on which it had stood." (Commentary in one volume, 1,325)

    (On Matthew 24:14 &lt;../m/matthew_24-14_oikoumene-world.html&gt;)
    "It is intimated that the gospel should be, if not heard, yet at least heard of, throughout the then known world, before the destruction of Jerusalem; that the Old-Testament church should not be quite dissolved till the New Testament was pretty well settled, had got considerable footing, and began to make some figure. Better is the face of a corrupt degenerate church than none at all. Within forty years after Christ's death, the sound of the gospel was gone forth to the ends of the earth, Romans 10:18. St. Paul fully preached the gospel from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum; and the other apostles were not idle. The persecuting of the saints at Jerusalem helped to disperse them, so that they went every where, preaching the word, Acts 8:1–4. And when the tidings of the Redeemer are sent over all parts of the world, then shall come the end of the Jewish state. Thus, that which they thought to prevent, by putting Christ to death, they thereby procured; all men believed on him, and the Romans came, and took away their place and nation, John 11:48. Paul speaks of the gospel being come to all the world, and preached to every creature, Colossians 1:6, 23." (Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible &lt;http://www.godrules.net/commentary.html&gt;)

    (On fulfillment of Zechariah 14:4)
    "The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14 (Commentary on the Whole Bible, 6 vols. (New York: Fleming H. Revell, n.d.), 4:1468.)

    (On Luke 21:28)
    "When Christ came to destroy the Jews, he came to redeem the Christians that were persecuted and oppressed by them." (Commentary, vol. 5, p. 805)


    A W Pink

    (On Hebrews 10:25)
    "and so much more as ye see the day approaching." There seems little room for doubt that the first reference here is to the destruction of the Jewish commonwealth, which was now very nigh for this epistle was written within less than eight years before Jerusalem was captured by Titus. That terrible catastrophe had been foretold, again and again, by Israel's prophets, and was plainly announced by the Lord Jesus in Luke 21. The approach of that dreadful "day" could be plainly seen or perceived by those possessing spiritual discernment: the continued refusal of the Nation to repent of their murder of Christ, and the abandoning of Christianity for an apostate Judaism by such large numbers, clearly presaged the bursting of the storm of God's judgment. This very fact supplied an additional motive for genuine Christians to remain faithful. The Lord Jesus promised that His followers should be preserved from the destruction of Jerusalem, but only as they attended to His cautions in Luke 21:8, 19, 34, etc., only as they persevered in faith and holiness, Matt. 24:13. The particular motive unto diligence here set before the Hebrews is applicable to other Christians just to the extent that they find themselves in similar circumstances." (Volume 2 Commentary on Hebrews (10:25).

    (On Hebrews 10:37)
    "The Greek is very expressive and emphatic. The apostle used a word which signifies 'a little while,' and then for further emphasis added a particle meaning 'very,' and this he still further intensified by repeating it; thus, literally rendered this clause reads, 'For yet a very, very little while, and he that shall come will come.'…'For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry.' The reference here is to the person of the Lord Jesus as is evident from Hab. 2:3, to which the apostle here alludes. Pink-Commentary on Hebrews-Pg 145

    Spurgeon

    "The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since. Even Titus seemed to see in his cruel work the hand of an avenging God. (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412)

    Truly, the blood of the martyrs slain in Jerusalem was amply avenged when the whole city became a veritable Aceldama, or field of blood... It was before that generation had passed away that Jerusalem was besieged and destroyed. There was a sufficient interval for the full proclamation of the gospel by the apostles and evangelists of the early Christian Church, and for the gathering out of those who recognized the crucified Christ as their true Messiah. Then came the awful end, which the Saviour foresaw and foretold, and the prospect of which wrung from his lips and heart the sorrowful lament that followed his prophecy of the doom awaiting his guilty capital... Nothing remained for the King but to pronounce the solemn sentence of death upon those who would not come unto him that they might have life: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." The whole "house" of the Jews was left desolate when Jesus departed from them; and the temple, the holy and beautiful "house", became a spiritual desolation when Christ finally left is. Jerusalem was too far gone to be rescued from its self

    "The King left his followers in no doubt as to when these things should happen: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." It was just about the ordinary limit of a generation when the Roman armies compassed Jerusalem, whose measure of iniquity was then full, and overflowed in misery, agony, distress, and bloodshed such as the world never saw before or since. Jesus was a true Prophet; everything that he foretold was literally fulfilled." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p.218)

    (On Forty Years and That Generation)
    The Kingly Prophet foretold the time of the end: "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." It was before that generation had passed away that Jerusalem was besieged and destroyed. There was a sufficient interval for the full proclamation of the gospel by the apostles and evangelists of the early Christian Church, and for the gathering out of those who recognized the crucified Christ as their true Messiah. Then came the awful end, which the Savior foresaw and foretold, and the prospect of which wrung from his lips and heart the sorrowful lament that followed his prophecy of the doom awaiting his guilty capital." (in loc.)

    (On Matthew 24:2)
    "To them the appearance was glorious; but to their Lord it was a sad sight. His Father’s house, which ought to have been a house of prayer for all nations, had became a den of thieves, and soon would be utterly destroyed: Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Josephus tells us that Titus at first tried to save the temple, even after it was set on fire, but his efforts were of no avail; and at last he gave orders that the whole city and temple should be levelled, except a small portion reserved for the garrison. This was so thoroughly done that the historian says that "there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited."


    On Matthew 24:15-21 , the Abomination of Desolation)
    "This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215.

    (On Matthew 24:27)
    "Christ's coming will be sudden, startling, universally visible, and terrifying to the ungodly: "as the lightening cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west." His first coming to judgment at the destruction of Jerusalem had terrors about it that till then had never been realized on the earth; his last coming will be more dreadful still." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. p. 216)

    (On Matthew 22:7)
    "In these terrible words, the siege of Jerusalem, the massacre of the people, and the destruction of their capital are all described. "When the king heard thereof, he was wroth. The King had reached the utmost limit of his forbearance and long-suffering patience. "The cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath" overflowed when he heard how his servants had been maltreated and slain; and: he sent forth his armies. The Roman emperor thought that he was sending his armies against the Jews; but he was, unconsciously, working out the eternal purposes of the most High God, even as the kings of Assyria and Babylon had been, in the olden time, the instruments by which the Lord had punished his rebellious people (see Isaiah 10:5, Jeremiah 25:9).
     
  19. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    And if you only read those who turn actual words into spiritualized hodgepodge nonsense, you will end up with the above.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    It shouldn't either. You would only reach that conclusion if words have no meaning and you get to invent things. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Daniel David -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     

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