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Preterist? Do I get this Right?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Bro.Bill, Jun 3, 2004.

  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    "This is a continuous thought"

    Not necessarily. The word "until" opens up the possiblity that "until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled" of vs 25 continues on well into the indeterminate future as even the Jews themselves believe unto this day…
    http://www.templemount.org/allah.html
    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3969/about.html

    HankD
     
  2. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    HankD,
    thanks for jumpin in. I have some more for my dear friend when I get back from my doctor appointment.Although I was only trying to find out what preterist beleive and what they base it on he has sparked me up a little. I think this may turn into a good study.I've read about 50 pages of material relating to lk 24 since he asked his question a little earlier.So in this regard I suppose I am grateful to my friend Grasshopper, we need our coals stirred occassionally.
     
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK and thanks to you also.

    HankD
     
  4. Bethelassoc

    Bethelassoc Member

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    Bro. Bill:

    I've studied the pret's viewpoint some and the best thing I can tell you is they believe that everything has been fulfilled. (Full Pret)

    I know that there are some that will have differences of opinion with that, but I believe by and large, they hold to that. And right when you start asking, "But, what about...", some things, they've interpreted through allegory to make them complete.

    You're right, though. It does bring up a good study of the scriptures, as long as people play nice. [​IMG]
     
  5. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    Luke 21:24 Here Christ speaks of the times of the Gentiles which are evidently to be separated from the Jewish "times and seasons".The Lord indicates that Jerusalem will continue in the Gentile dominion" until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled".Zecheria12:2, &14:2,3 indicate this will not be until the second advent, when the armies of the beast are destroyed by the Lord, as He is seen to do in Rev.19:17-19. In Rev 11:2, in parenthesis between the 6th & 7th trumpets, there is a reference to the times of the Gentiles.John indicate that Jerusalem is still in Gentile power and that from the beginning of the series of judgements,which this parenthesis interupts,until the end of the Gentile dominoin is 3 1/2 years.
    My condensed paraphrase of J. Dwight pentecost comments.
    The times of the Gentiles refers to political power. The fulness of the Gentiles refers has reference to blessing and opportunity in the present age.The fulness of the Gentiles began at Pentecost and will continue only as long as the present age of grace. My very condensed paraphrase of Walvoord on this subject.
    Luke 21:25,26 refers to the nature of the Tribulation. O.T. Scriptures which may lend some light to this: Duet4:30,31, Is 2:19,24:1,3,6,19-21,Is26:20,21,Jer30:7,Dan9:27,12:1,Jeol1:15,2:1,2,Amos5:18,20 Zeph1:14,15,18. NT Scripture which may lend some light: Mt24:21,22,1Thess5:3, Rev3:10,6:15-17.
    The double referense is obvious speaking to Jerusalems destruction in 70 A.D. and the later tribulation. At least this is how I see it.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    In reference to Luke 21, there are the words of Grasshopper:
    "On what basis do you split verse 24 from 25?"

    My study of history.
    There appears NOT to be yet a
    fullfillment of Luke 21:25.
    The only way i can see one is to spiritualize
    the verse 25 into meaninglessness.

    If the Olivet Discourse is speaking of the Destruction of Jerusalem,
    and I have no doubt it does, then how can you put the events
    mentioned in these verses into the future?

    Everytime i hear about someone raping a baby to death
    i reaffirm that we are NOT NOW LIVING in the
    Milinnial Kingdom of Christ. Please Lord Jesus,
    come get us out of this mess we live in. Thank you, Sir,
    for hearing my plea.

    Personally i find the Matthew 24-25 account of the
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) much easier to unravel.

    ---------------------------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc&gt;)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.


    -----------------------------
    The parallel passages in Mark 13 and Luke 21
    enhanse the Matthew 24 message:

    Jesus is coming back to get me at the
    beginning of the 7-year long tribulation period
    wrath judgement day -- the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    Amen & Amen. well thought out. that's why I look to guys like you Ed and Dr. Bob and a few others.
    Thanks for your input.By the way I'll be happy to leave right on time with you.
     
  8. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    HankD what part of Washington are you living in?
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I live in the Capital of our beatiful State, Olympia.

    HankD
     
  10. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    Olympia is a gorgeous small city. Are you a pastor there?
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    No, I don't believe that a body count or percentages of death over many many years give an answer. Why would it be based on casualties? </font>[/QUOTE]I'll answer your question when you
    can propose a more attractive alternative.

    /ed's tongue is firmly in his cheek.
    Is that a new earring ed has on?
    No, it is just ed's tongue so far into
    his cheek that it looks like a new earring [​IMG] /

    Does anybody here think we shouyld determilne
    the depth of dispair by polling Coptic
    monks in Sinai peninsula monestaries?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I am no longer pastoring, though I have.

    I was a late-bloomer, attended Calvary Bible College and Seminary in KCMO while married and with kids. I graduated in 1972.

    I presently teach the Senior Adult Sunday School class at the local Baptist Church (GARBC) of my membership.

    HankD
     
  13. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    You probably know you have the better deal now. Pastoring is a lot of work.My wife and I are planning to go to the coast in a month or 2 for vacation. I grew up in tacoma.
     
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I am completely aware of that. Pastoring is a fulltime plus job.

    Tacoma has become an ugly place, crime, etc.

    HankD
     
  15. Dallaeus

    Dallaeus New Member

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    Just two notes on this Preterist debate:

    -men like DeMar or Sproul tend to continually mock the so-called Last Days madness of popular US evangelicalism...and they write books on prophecy!! Not necessarly the most consistent attitude, but at least this is good marketing.

    -one of the very basic tenets of Preterism is that the Book of Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70. We're still waiting for a convincing proof of this fact (and yes, I've read Gentry).
     
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Bro.Bill said:
    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled .

    The only things written at the time Jesus uttered these words was the OT. If you say that Luke 21:7-24 is speaking of the fall of Jerusalem then you must also conclude that "all things" the prophets prophesied about must also be fulfilled at this time.

    Context says he is speaking to the disciples. Why do you assume He jumps from them to some distant future people? Did those disciples assume He wasn't speaking to them and their generation? If so it is rather deceiving isn't it? You might want to read your 2Thes.2:3-4 reference and continue through verse 7. Who was 2 Thes. written too?

    What have I refused to answer? I think if you read my responses, you will see I go out of my way to answer questions. It is my questions that usually go unanswered.

    Is it? You say OT prophecies can have double meanings/fulfillments. Are you the only one who decides which ones do? Using your interpretive method I can just as well say the prophecies of the Messiah are also types of a future greater fulfillment. Why limit it to just the prophecies that don't fit the futuristic scheme? You see the mess you can get into with presuppositions?

    Rev 11:2 tells you how long it will be.

    Those verses speak to the fall of Jerusalem.

    The latter days are the same latter days of Gen. 49:1,10. See Hebrews 1:1. Last days are the last days of the Jewish Age/Old Covenant.

    Is 2:19,
    See Rev. 6:16 and Luke 23:28-30.

    24:1,3,6,19-21,Is26:20,21

    Those all speak of the ending of the Old Covenant through the Destrution of Jerusalem in AD 70 by the Romans. Read Matt 23.

    Jer30:7
    New Covenant. Past not future.

    Joel1:15,2:1,2
    Assyrians coming against Babylon. Past, not future.

    Amos5:18,20 Zeph1:14,15,18

    More OT judgments. Past not future. In fact Zeph. is a prophecy of the coming destruction of Israel by the Babylonians.( see also Jer. 4:19) Notice verses 7, 14, and 18 use words like "at hand", "near", "quickly",and "speedy" Also notice this was prophecied in about 626BC and was fulfilled in 586BC. That prophecy was fulfilled 40 years after being prophecied. Yet futurist today say that the words "at hand", "near", and "quickly" are meaningless in the NT.

    Walvoord should do some study in history.


    Ed Said:
    Or you could read the OT and see what sun, moon and stars represent. Start in Is. 13.

    The Kingdom is spiritual not physical. You are like the Jews the OT and 1st century who wanted an earthly King and earthly Kingdom. Sorry, not what Jesus had in mind.


    Of course, if you have to deal with Mark and Luke's account, your little graph gets "out of whack" What "age" were the Disciples asking Jesus about?


    Dallaeus said:
    After reading Gentry's book, I was left wondering where all the evidence for the late date is. Any facts?

    HankD said:
    The "until" refers back to "Jerusalem being trodden down". How long will Jerusalem be trodden down? UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. That is not a separation of thousands of years as you have tried to make it. Verse 25 is a continuation of the thought. Read it again without presuppositions and you would in no way divide it.
    What does verse 22 refer too?
     
  17. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    Grasshopper you can be a preterist or amillinialist all you want, it's okay with me.We have different points of view. I was just trying to find out what a preterist is. I think I have repeated this several times.I find that trying to change a Christians mind on things that generally fall in the scheme of orthodoxy does'nt work, so I don't waste my time. If someone has a view that won't keep them out of heaven that's the important part. Besides our theology will be straghtened out perfectly when we go home to be With Jesus.
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    You led me to believe otherwise:

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    let's see Grasshopper,you are a preterist of some kind with some depth of knowledge about your position. So when I question what do preteist believe and what do they use for evidence, you use the old KJVO tactic and refuse to answer
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  19. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    Grasshopper read what you wrote just above the comment you are referring to and you will see what I mean.That's how I saw your entry as did others who joined in. If I misread you I apologize.
     
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