Preterist Swiss Cheese

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by RunAway, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. RunAway

    RunAway
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    Just blows my mind how some hold to the teaching of preterism with the world going on around them.... I have a preterist buddy and everyday he's just walking around wringing his hands and wondering where we are headed in this old world...Everything from gas prices to the economy rips him up and we need to do something come election time and all this but he does not believe the things going on around us have anything to do with what the scriptures say... He believes Jesus is coming, one day, but doesn't believe there are signs and argues that if there were signs of His coming it would ruin the "element of surprise", like that's what the main plan is...Give me a break!! I love the doctrines of grace but I'm not so infactuated with it that I am led down the Reformed-Covanant road blinded by the status quo... MacArthur is the greatest expositor since Calvin!!!!!!!! MacArthur for President!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  2. revmwc

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    We have had ongoing debates in the Baptist debate forum about preterism and as they call us futurist.
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    So please give us some of these scriptures that reflect what is happening all around us.
     
  4. RunAway

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    Yupino....but with each new day comes more and more reason to be a "futurist"...
     
  5. revmwc

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    Each day a little closer to His return.
     
  6. RunAway

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    You know the scriptures I would use as I know the scriptures you would use... Let's use some "facts" along with hermeneutic- God is in the future telling business and has always revealed His plans in specific detail, why would He "change" in the end??? I don't think we even want to go there...
     
  7. RunAway

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    Its the same kind of interpretation that causes the Campbellites to come to the same conclusion...
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    Ah yes, another Dispie when asked to answer a plain clear question.... just can't do it.:wavey:

    Your name fits you well.
     
  9. RunAway

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    I thought you might see what I was saying in my last response....see if I can make it more clear; I know what you will say, same ole cramming round pegs into square holes that y'all always do...Can't argue scripture with y'all...this post wasn't even meant for a debate with preterist... Was just me shouting out to those of a like mind....Peace!!
     
  10. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    I have been a premil dispy all of my life, but in recent years have come to the understanding that it is not Biblical. On the other hand, I do not see Christ as having returned in 70AD. Much of the prophecy used for premil was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, but Christ has not yet returned. I take His physical return as literal as His "soon", "you", & "this generation" statements. He has not yet judged the nations or recreated the universe anew. I guess you could say I do not belong 100% in either camp.

    But I also think dispensationalism is a flight of fancy.
    The term "dispensation" in Scripture does not refer to a span of time. It means to administrate, manage or steward. When I began to study the Word for myself, I did not see where anyone saw a theology of "dispensations of time" in Scripture. Even dispensationalists cannot agree over the number of dispensations. If it were Biblical, the Bible would outline each & every one in unquestioning detail.
     
  11. RunAway

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    Wouldn't say that I go along with all the dispensationalism stuff but I certainly recognize a difference between the church and Israel and my eschatology follows....You don't have to agree with all the dispi stuff to be in line with that...
     
  12. J.D.

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    So what is the difference between the church and Israel?
     
  13. revmwc

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    Israel as a chosen Nation was called out from amoung the Gentiles to be God's people a chosen Nation. The People God chose to send the Messiah the Saviour out of and that through them all nations would be blessed. They were to propagate that Gospel and failed. Yet God still promises to send the Son of David to sit upon thethrone of Israel in yet a future Messianic Kingdom as prophesied by Isaiah, Zechariah and even John.

    The Church is made of all who Believe on the Saviour Who has come and who has atoned for all mankinds sins. The church is made up of a Jew and Gentile alike all who place their faith and trust in Him. The Gospel is now given to the Church to take to the whole world. Once the last person of the church age has been saved the snatching out of the church will take place.

    Israel will again see 144,000 and two witnesses proclaim the Gospel and the Kingdom coming during a 7 year period which will end and the Messiah will come as prophisied to rule and reign on the Throne of His Father David and all nations will be subject to Him during that 1000 year reign.

    God is not through with Israel as His people more prophecy is yet to be fulfilled as soon as the mystery time of the Church has been fulfilled.
    The propagation of the Gospel was taken from Israel for a period of time but that right will be restored to them in the Tribualation and the Kingdom.
     
  14. J.D.

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    Thank you but I would like to see Runaway's answer.
     
  15. RunAway

    RunAway
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    I see in scripture that God has not destined the Church for wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9... But He has Israel and the unbelieving gentile nations...


    You want to see if I know the difference between Israel and the church...

    ESV
    Ephesians 5

    22 Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord.
    23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is
    head of the church, His body, and is Himself it's Savior..

    Now look at verse 25..

    Husbands,love your wives, as Christ loved the church and
    gave Himself up for her.

    Now why did Christ give Himself for the church? Verse 26....

    That He might sanctify her,,having cleansed her by the
    washing of water with the word,so that He might present
    the church to Himself in splendor,without spot or wrinckle
    or any such thing that she might be holy and without
    blemish...

    Christ died for the church that it may be presented to Himself pure...

    Paul said in 2 Cor. 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you,since I
    betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

    That is the plan for the church,to be presented to Christ at the rapture
    completely pure....

    Ephesians 5:32 This mystery is profound,and I am saying that it refers to
    Christ and the church.

    This is the mystery...Not marriage....Marriage is not a new concept. In the OT Israel is presented as the wife of Jehovah...The whole book of Hosea is a divine allegory of God and his relationship to Israel... Israel is seen as Gods wife,an adulteress, unfaithful harlot...The promise is that the harlot would be restored in the Kingdom...

    Israel is a wife, but a harlot....
    The church is a bride, and a chaste Virgin...



    Now I have a question for you, what is Paul talking about in Romans 2:16 when he says to the Jew first,and also to the Greek????

    And what does it mean in Galatians 6:16 where Paul says peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God????? Is God just being redundant????

    I ask this question because it's obvious they are two different entities...It's also obvious God still retains a position of prominence for the Jew...I can't think of another verse that states the obvious better than these two...They will find their redemption in the same Lord but His plan for each are completely different....

    Romans 11: 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

    23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers:a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,


    This says Israel will be grafted back in after the fullness of the Gentiles....Not hard to pull that out of this... They will be grafted back in during the tribulation....

    Hope this answers your question, not about the difference between Israel and the church, but what my answer would be...I know this will make no difference to your position but there may be some that appreciate this insight.....:sleeping_2:
     
  16. J.D.

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    Thank you, and very good. Although I don't agree with your conclusions, I like your use of scripture (although there is a limit to the usefulness of proof texting) and sticking to the point. Since you're new around here, I wasn't sure who or what I was dealing with.

    As for your questions, (your reference of Rom 2:16 was incorrect), you have correctly identified some differences between Israel and the Church - I do not dispute most of them. There definitely were Jews and Gentiles, who together became "one new man" in Christ. But besides that, Paul's use of the phrase "to the Jews first" comes as no surprise to the Jews. But his statement, "and also to the Greeks", is an atomic bomb to their exclusive soteriology. The overall context of the Romans text is the universal application of condemnation under the law and salvation under grace, to both Jew and Gentile ("Greek").

    To the second question, can you really speak of that nation, of whom Jesus says, "your house is left to you desolate"; and "the kingdom shall be taken away and given to a nation bearing the fruit thereof"; "not one stone shall be left upon another"; do you believe THAT nation is "the Israel of God"?

    And what was the Lord speaking of when he said through Peter, "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light"? Old Testament Israel?

    Further, who are the citizens of Israel? We see in the OT that they were the blood lineage of Abraham - Jews: "Abraham is our father". But Jesus and Paul tells us that in the Gospel age, Jews are not identified by blood, but by faith: "Your father is the devil"; "if Abraham were your father, you would do the works of Abraham"; "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."; and, "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."

    Now I will ask two questions:

    1. You have found some differences between Israel and the Church - can you find any similarities?

    2. Where in the Bible do we find that the citizens of Israel ever were or ever shall be called "the children of God"?
     
    #16 J.D., Jun 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2011
  17. RunAway

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    Brother I really appreciate you!!! I like the way you keep me on my toes but to be honest I don't have time to give you the best answers or the ones you deserve...But I don't want you to feel like I just left you hanging either...I may come back and respond later but right now I just don't have time... Sorry....
     

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