Previous Post - Arminians Please Answer

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Sovereign Grace, Oct 10, 2002.

  1. Sovereign Grace

    Sovereign Grace
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    If every man without exception is drawn, perhaps you could interpret I Corinthians 1:26-31.

    "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

    Or perhaps you could interpret Matthew 11:25-26.

    "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."

    In John 6:44, "draw" (Gr., helkuo or helko) by no means can be interpreted "to beg" or "to plead." The word is interpreted "to draw by inward power, lead, impel." The drawing is effectual, for "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (Jn. 6:45) Pastor Larry is absolutely right; John 6 is too clear.

    In regards to John 12:32, I agree Jesus was referring to the Gentiles, the other sheep not of the Jewish fold Jesus said that He must bring (Jn. 10:16). Ephesians 2:13 teaches this.

    "Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were wthout Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."
     
  2. Eric B

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    It can't mean what Calvinists assume, because then God is choosing based on something about the person.
    Actually, "are called" is not in the original, but this is contrasted with the next verse: "But God has chosen...", and then we recall that "Many are called, few are chosen". (Matt.20:16)
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    What???? The point of the passage is that God is not choosing based on something about the person. How did you get that turned around? The calling and choosing are synonymous. There is no difference.
     
  4. ForumChaplain

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    It speaks nothing concerning who is saved. It simply states salvation is not earned through earthly wisdom. It is not earned because one is mighty, nor because one is of noble birth; does not depend on strength. God has not chosen things that appeal to man to bring one to salvation: That no man should glory in his presence. Salvation, wisdom, sanctification, and redemption, are not within the might of men, but in the presence of Christ. Therefore if one does seek glory, let him seek it in the Lord.

    Simply says that one need not be a rocket scientist in order to understand the bible.

    To draw also does not mean to force by irresistible grace either. The drawing is effectual; you put that in there. The clarity is dependent on what light you are shinning on it. Shine a Calvinistic light on it and you will see something different than if you shinned the light of scripture on it.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    So your response to the "NOT many are (called inserted)" is that the "MANY are Called" of Matt 20 are the "Not Many" of 1Cor1??

    When Christ says "Many are Called but FEW are chosen"

    Your point is that they are in fact - the same??

    That shows a problem in your view.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Eric B

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    Being "wise" or not, is something in the person!
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    Actually, it doens't even address my view since Matt and 1 Cor are two different contexts. You cannot go to every place where "called" is used and assume it it the same.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    But you miss the point of the passage. It is about God's choosing not based on characteristics. You have turned the passage on its head to say that God is choosing people "because they are not wise." That is exactly the opposite of what Paul is saying.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    If we follow the point - "called" was a proposed insert into 1Cor 1 - from the Calvinist position, In Matt 20 it is actually "in" the text.

    It was "giving the point" to the Calvinist argument to even start with the premise that "called" was in 1cor 1.

    You are right to point out that 1 Cor 1 can not qualify as speaking of Called -as we see Matt 20 explicitly address it - "Many are Called" - BUT FEW are chosen.

    Your view that "Called AND chosen are the SAME" thing is problematic in the ONE text of Matt 20 alone.

    I assume you already knew that - but chose not to address it.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ October 13, 2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    ????? No its not. It is right there in the text. Look it up. The verse says, "Blepete gar ten klesiv." It is in there.

    Did you read my post? I said that you cannot assume that the same word used in two different context means the same thing. That is the fallacy you have participated in. In 1 cor 1, it is clear that they do by virtue of the parallelism in the verses. In Matt 20 it is clear that they do not because of the contrast in the verse. These exegetical points mean something. Let's use them and proceed from there.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    The obvious problem is apparently being left as an exercise for the reader.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    The obvious problem is apparently being left as an exercise for the reader.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps it would have been appropriate for you to point out to the readers that I am talking about a different context than you are. I am referring to the calling and choosing in 1 Cor 1; you are referring to the calling and choosing in Matt 22:14, not 20:16 as you cited. This is what I mean by misrepresentation and you have stooped again to that level. Why did you make me appear to refer to something I am not referring to?
     
  13. Eric B

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    No, it's about a particular characteristic of man-- his "wisdom" in general, versus Christ.
    Isn't that the thrust of "God has chosen the weak things to confound the wise".
     
  14. Helen

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    Wait a minute, please. Two different things are being confused here, I think. The original quote of 1 Cor. 1:26+ is NOT about the sort of choosing that results in salvation. Verse 26 simply reviews that when those written to were called, if they looked back, they would realize not many of them were wise by human standards. Verse 27 and on is talking about something else very different. If you turn it around at bit you will see what I mean.

    The way God has chosen to confound the wisdom of this world is through those things this world considers lowly or foolish. This part is not about the choice of the person, but the choice of how God uses the person.

    However, earlier, in verse 21 of that first chapter of 1 Corinthians, there is something which does not jive with Calvinism: For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

    Those who are saved are those who believe.

    The wisdom of this world tends to blind the eyes of those steeped in it to what they consider the foolishness of the gospel of Christ. Therefore it is often the lowly who respond in simple belief. And God chooses to use these lowly people to demonstrate HIS wisdom and confound the wisdom of the world.

    Two different sorts of choosings are spoken of in these verses -- the choice of the man who believes for salvation and then the choice of how that man will be used by God.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    To address both you and Helen at the same time, Paul is making an argument about salvation (v. 18 ... the head verse of the paragraph). His argument is about the foolish way that God has chosen to save people ... namely through a crucified Messiah which is a contradiction in terms. (How can a Messiah be crucified? Wouldn't he cease to be the Messiah?) God was well pleased to bypass the wisdom of men (the way that they would be saved) to do it his own way, by belief in a crucified Messiah. The contrast is that belief is too simple; the world demands more. Notice the calling of vv. 22-23. By contrast with the Jews and Greeks, the "called" are those who are saved. The contrast is saved/unsaved, called vs. not called. In v. 26, the "calling" is the calling to salvation and it is explicitly said to be not on any characteristic that the would would find reasonable because the foolishness of God is wiser than man. Vv. 26-27 form a contrast, as signified by the word "but" (alla), the strongest adversative in the Greek language. It ties the two verses together to speak about the same thing. Therefore the "choosing" of v. 27 is the "calling" of v. 26, based on teh grammar and argument of the passage. God has chosen to salvation those whom the world would not choose so that there can be no boasting before God. The point of the passage is not as much about election as it is about sovereignty, that God works the way he wants to. He is not beholden to man in any way.

    This, to me, strikes right at the heart of the arminian system that places the deciding factor of salvation in man. That givse man a reason to boast. He can say, "The difference between you and I is something that I did and you didn't do." To me, that strikes right at the heart of the passage. God works another way ... a way that the wisdom of man, even well meaning man, does not understand and does not accept.

    In closing this, we might ask, why does one believe and another not? The answer is also found in the broader context of 2:14 ... the natural man does not accept things of the Spirit because he is natural. This whole passage is a tough one for people of your position because of the clarity with which it addresses the issues here. Having studied this passage in depth several years ago, I found myself even more convinced than ever that salvation is all of God and none whatsoever of man.
     
  16. Eric B

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    This passage does not present random choosing of certain individuals for salvation as "foolishness to the world", while God saving those who choose to believe is "man's wisdom". "Saving those who believe" was God's "foolishness" in the passage while man's wisdom itself, along with works (constrasted with "believing", not identifiedwith it) and inheritance was man's wisdom.
    Once again, the Primitives and some other hypers will say that your position (in which you try to squeeze "preaching" and "believing" into a system that really doesn't need it) also is still "some of man's work and not all God's", so this charge really does not stick.
     
  17. ForumChaplain

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    Acts 17:30
    30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    Eric,

    I agree with what you have said. As I said in my original post, this passage is not directly about election. IN fact, to quote myself, The point of the passage is not as much about election as it is about sovereignty, that God works the way he wants to. He is not beholden to man in any way. However, what it seems very difficult if not impossible to deny is that the calling and choosing are salvific in nature.

    Secondly, to suggest that "preaching" and "believing" are unnecessary in our system is to ignore the plain teaching of Scripture. Both are fully necessary because God said so. I have serious problems with primitives who teach as you have said. In fact, I have brought up the biblical passages that show them to be out of line with Scripture. But that is not really the issue here.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    The point of Matt 20:16 is rejected repeatedly in the Calvinist response as it states "Many are called but FEW are chosen"

    The Calvinist response is that they 'need' 1Cor 1 to be using the term in a 'different way' so that Calling CAN be the same as CHOSEN.

    But of course - the text of 1Cor 1 does not show that "need". In fact 1Cor1 is perfectly in harmony with Matt 20:16 without the Calvinist tactic of "redefining terms as Calvinism may need them redefined from text to text". If you leave the term the SAME in Matt 20 and 1Cor 1 - it works fine - just not for Calvinism.

    Christ states that 'they rejected God's PURPOSE for THEM' Luk 7:30-35. INSTEAD of NOT working to send them light and to enlighten them - God shows THEY reject "God's purpose for them".

    Christ shows that BECAUSE they refuse the light SENT TO THEM (John 1:4-12) they are left in darkness. (He CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not).

    The Calvinist model is "HE did NOT come to those that DID not recieve Him - THEY fulfilled His Purpose FOR THEM by not receiving the truth". IN the Calvinist model of "election via arbitrary selection" - God Works to Save SOME and chooses to ignore others.

    "Sure I could have done Something to save your child IF I had Cared to" - is His reply in the Calvinist model.

    He Draws ALL - and the Drawing IS effective - it overcomes the problems caused by "depravity" - the lost can HEAR Him "Stand at the door and knock" and they can CHOOSE to "OPEN the DOOR" so that He comes IN and fellowship is the result.

    John 6 emphasizes that NO ONE CAN COME unless drawn. It does not say "ALL DRAWN are saved". And neither does it make the Calvinst statement that "The Whole World is Saved". AS they insist when redefining "whole world" in 1John 2:2.

    John 12 does not limit "ALL" by saying "IF I be lifted up I will draw SOME Gentiles unto me".

    NOR does it say "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL - but just all gentiles"

    The attempt to reduce the scope of all in John 12 to "gentiles" as problematic as that may be for the text - does not serve Calvinism for in Calvinism it is not merely reduced to GENTILES - it is reduced to "SOME Gentiles". In fact it is ultimately reduced down to the "Arbitrarily select FEW of Matt 7".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Yelsew

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    Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." Seems that Jesus (God incarnate) leaves the Choice up to "whosoever". God chose to Give us Jesus, God Gave us free will, seems the choice is ours and ours alone.

    Granted, God did recruit Saul in a highly unusual manner. He also provided Faithful men throughout history to be our guides. But, it is up to us whether or not we believe enough to place our lives in the Hands of God. Therein lies Salvation!
     

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