Pride is a virtue in the ESV, NASB, NIV

Craig, you seem to have difficulty answering straight questions. I see that twice now you have avoided telling us WHICH Greek and Hebrew texts are the "real thing" you study, and what do you do about the scores of instances when the esv, niv, rsv, nasb depart from the Hebrew texts.

Secondly, Bartholomew asked a very reasonable question which was based on the main purpose of the topic Is Pride a Christian virtue?


You responded with this: "First of all, we can see from the context of the word “pride” in this verse that it makes more sense than does “rejoice” as translated in the KJV."


Craig, in view of all the other Scriptures in both Old and New testaments condemning pride and boasting, how can you legitimately say this?

You continue: "Furthermore, it is a more accurate translation from the Greek New Testament."

Well, Craigo, there a just a few Bible translators who apparently differ with you on this. "This know also that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be...boasters, proud...heady, highminded" 2 Timothy 3:1-4. "not of works; lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:9

Compare the King James Bible with the NASB, NIV, ESV, and NKJV in these verses.

Galatians 6:4 KJB "Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have REJOICING in himself alone". This is the reading of Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587, the NKJV, Webster's, and the Third Millenium Bible, to name a few.

You then continue: "Since we know that the Greek New Testament does not contradict itself or the Old Testament, we know that there is no contradiction in this accurate translation. Both Proverbs and Galatians shed light on God’s attitude toward pride. Arrogance is a sin; healthy self-respect is NOT a sin. "

Craig, are you sure you are not a Jesuit? Galatians does not say "then shall he have healthy respect for himself" in any version I know of.


You continue: " But again, we talking about the translation into English of a Greek word that God used to express to us one of His concepts. Both English and Greek are man-made languages and we can not expect either one of them to perfectly express to fallible man the mind of infallible God."

Craig, again you reveal you totally naturalistic, humanistic and decidedly unbiblical approach to the Scriptures. Man didn't invent languages. God did. And if God cannot communicate His infallible mind through languages, then let's just toss out all Bibles and Hebrew and Greek texts.

Your thinking here is totally unbiblical. Your brains were scrambled at seminary by guys like Larry and Bob.

Did you read the article I posted about Can a Translation be Inspired?

Words have many meanings depending on the context. All your modern versions also translate the same Greek word as "joy, rejoice, exult" in other contexts. For your mvs to clearly teach in many scriptures that pride in oneself or ones accomplishments is a sin, and then turn around and promote pride in oneself as a positive Christian value, shows them to be false witnesses to the truth.

That you and Larry would try to actually defend this foolishness shows just how far you are from a Biblical perspective, and how determined you are to promote a lie.

Let's briefly run through the last verse of my little study and compare meanings. If you don't see or even care about the differences here, then there is little hope of your recovery.


Philippians 2:16 KJB, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishop's, Geneva, NKJV, TMB, and others: "that I may REJOICE in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

NASB: "in the day of Christ I may have REASON TO GLORY because I did not run in vain"

NIV: "in order that I MAY BOAST in the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing."

RSV, ESV "so that in the day of Christ I MAY BE PROUD that I did not run in vain."

Nobody will be boasting or proud of his personal accomplishments in the day of the Lord Jesus; we will all be flat on our faces worshipping the Lamb who alone is worthy to receive praise, honour and glory.

Will Kinney

 

Craig, you seem to have difficulty answering straight questions. I see that twice now you have avoided telling us WHICH Greek and Hebrew texts are the "real thing" you study, and what do you do about the scores of instances when the esv, niv, rsv, nasb depart from the Hebrew texts.
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I have not avoided telling you WHICH Greek and Hebrew texts are the "real thing" that I study. This is yet another misinterpretation of the facts that you insist upon posting over and over and over again. The truth is that I have not had the time to answer all of the questions being asked me on the message board. The answer to this particular question is that the "real thing" that I study are the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and the Greek and Hebrew texts, as well as Greek and Hebrew literature in which "Biblical" words are found so that I can get a more accurate idea as to exactly how they are used in the Bible."

Congratulations Craig, you did it again. Do you think we are all really, really stupid? You did NOT answer WHICH specific Greek and Hebrew texts you consider to be the "real thing". Here is your "answer".

" The answer to this particular question is that the "real thing" that I study are the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and the Greek and Hebrew texts, as well as Greek and Hebrew literature in which "Biblical" words are found so that I can get a more accurate idea as to exactly how they are used in the Bible."

Craig, there are at least 25 different printed Greek texts out there, and your UBS texts keep changing from from the previous ones and the others will sometimes differ from each other by 3 or 4000 words. Likewise there are many different Hebrew texts, and your ESV, NASB, NIV, RSV all frequently depart from them all. You have yet to answer the question for us.

Keep trying. You might be able to pin it down a bit more for us. But I don't really expect you to do that. You scholars are a slippery bunch.

Will K

 

Galatians 6:4 KJB "Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have REJOICING in himself alone". This is the reading of Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587, the NKJV, Webster's, and the Third Millenium Bible, to name a few.
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Yes, you are right, "there a JUST A FEW Bible translators who apparently differ" with me. Those who are still alive either need to do some more studying or be more academically honest. Most of them, however, lived at a time when resources for Greek language study were exceedingly limited and they did the best they could with the very little (almost nothing) that they had to work with. I have right here in my study about 650 volumes of Greek texts, lexicons, grammars, theological dictionaries, and commentaries on the Greek text, not to mention hundreds of other volumes of supportive material.

Craig, this is so typical of apostates. Those old guys whom God used to put together a masterpiece that God has used mightily for almost 400 years were ignorant rubes in comparison to the giants of intellect and advanced scholarship that are around today who put out comic book versions that last a few years and then are replaced by something else that will tickle our ears, as the church slides into full blown apostacy and lukewarm indifference to the revealed truths of God.

We do indeed live in interesting times.

Will

 

Craig posts:
---------
Gerzel Gordon wrote,
"By practicing self-control, we also keep or raise our self-esteem, and can take a proper godly pride in ourselves. Not arrogantly, but with a sense of worth and integrity."

Craig, you have fallen for the decidedly unbiblical self esteem dream of today's neo-evangelical Laodicean church.

"And knowest not that thou are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Rev. 3:17.

Where is the true Holy Bible are we ever told by God to have self esteem or "godly pride in ourselves"? Chapter and verse, please.

Rather what I see in God's true words is that the more clearly we see Who He is, and what we are, the more clearly we see how totally wretched, unworthy and sinful we really are and how wonderful His grace is to the chief of sinners.

Your modern bibles are being changed in so many sublte ways to downgrade the glory of God and exalt man's view of himself, and it is guys like you who promote this junk.

Yes, each of us will give an answer to God for our words.

Will

 

That you would defend the exaltation of pride in self and criticise the true words of God and the only legitimate meaning as found in the KJB, indicates to me that you have reached a new level of incompetence.


Larry responds: The big problem is that you weren't even accurate. I didn't defend the exaltation of pride in self. I didn't criticize the true word of God. What I pointed out was that you have attacked God's word because he used the word "kauchema" that, whether you like it or not, means pride. The fact that you misunderstand it is your problem, not mine or God's. I have preached from tht passage before I had no problem with it. You are the one with a problem here.
God is the one who said the very thing you disagree with. That is not my problem, it is not my defense. It is God's word and you have attacked it.
You would do well to quit posting these foolish attacks on God's word. You would do well to submit yourself to his word."


Larry, you affirm the word "kauchema" means pride, and apparently think that by rendering so many verses as "then he can take pride in himself", and "That I can boast in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain", is not promoting pride in oneself.

O o o-Kay. Makes sense to me.

So let me get this straight. The verb is kaukaomai, and all the versions translate this word in various ways including "to boast, to glory, AND to rejoice, exult, or Joy".

The ESV and NIV both translate this verb as to REJOICE three times in Romans 5:2,3 and 11 where they say we rejoice in hope, we rejoice in tribulations, and we rejoice in God. The nasb says in all three places that we "exult" in hope, and God etc. To exult means to rejoice in something.

So the verb itself can mean "to rejoice" even in the ESV, NIV, NASB, but the noun form of this verb can never mean "rejoicing" but only "pride" or "boasting". Do I have this right?

Thanks so much for setting me straight on this. Your deep understanding of the word of God is of infinite value to me and others who would be lost without highly respected and esteemed men like yourself to keep us ignorant fools from wandering out of the way.

Allow me to repost the article and let others consider whether the new versions are promoting pride in oneself or not, OK?


Rejoice or Be Proud?

In the true Holy Bible boasting in oneself is never commended as a good thing. Scripture allows for boasting in the accomplishments of others, but not in ourselves. For example, see 2 Corinthians 7:14; 8:24, and 9:3-4. Here the apostle Paul boasted to others of the Corinthians because they were ready to provide for the needs of the poor saints in Jerusalem.

Boasting in oneself is done only in a sense of irony, and is called "folly" and speaking foolishly - See 2 Corinthians 11:1, 10, 16-18 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also."

Pride and boasting in oneself is always condemned in the King James Bible as being a sin. Many new versions however have completely turned this around in several verses of Scripture, and have now made pride in self and boasting to be Christian virtues.

"Pride and arrogancy...do I hate" Proverbs 8:13

"When pride cometh, then cometh shame; but with the lowly is wisdom. Proverbs 11:2

"Pride goeth before destruction" Proverbs 16:18

"This know also that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be...boasters, proud...heady, highminded" 2 Timothy 3:1-4. "not of works; lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:9

Compare the King James Bible with the NASB, NIV, ESV, and NKJV in these verses.

Galatians 6:4 KJB "Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have REJOICING in himself alone". This is the reading of Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587, John Wesley's 1755 translatioin, Webster's 1833 translation, the NKJV 1982, KJV 21st Century, and the Third Millenium Bible.

However the NASB says "he will have REASON FOR BOASTING in regard TO himself"; NIV "he can TAKE PRIDE IN HIMSELF", and the ESV says: "then his REASON TO BOAST WILL BE IN HIMSELF ALONE."

James 1:9 KJB "Let the brother of low degree REJOICE in that he is exalted."

NASB "the brother of humble circumstances IS TO GLORY in his high position";

NIV "the brother in humble circumstances OUGHT TO TAKE PRIDE IN his high position."

RSV, ESV "Let the lowly brother BOAST IN his exaltation."

2 Corinthians 1:12, 14 KJB, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishop's, Geneva, TMB, and others: "For our REJOICING is this...by the grace of God we have had our conversation in the world...we are your REJOICING, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus."

NASB "For our PROUD CONFIDENCE is this...that in holiness...we have conducted ourselves in the world...we are YOUR REASON TO BE PROUD, as you also are ours..."

NKJV, NIV, RSV, ESV "Now this is our BOAST...we behaved ourselves in the world...YOU CAN BOAST OF US just as we will BOAST OF YOU in the day of the Lord Jesus."

1 Thessalonians 2:19 KJB, NKJV, Youngs, Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's 1568, Geneva 1599, Wesley 1755, Webster's 1833, Third Millenium Bible: - "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown OF REJOICING? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"

The NASB is OK here with "what is our crown of exultation?", but the NIV begins the slide into pride with "What is the crown in which we will glory"?, and the RSV, and the 2001 ESV go all the way saying: "For what is our hope or joy or CROWN OF BOASTING before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?" Do the apostles get a crown in which to boast because they had won others to the Lord?

Philippians 1:26 KJB, NKJV, many others: "That your REJOICING may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again."

NASB "so that YOUR PROUD CONFIDENCE in me may abound"

RSV, ESV "you will have ample CAUSE TO GLORY"

Here the NIV has "your JOY in Christ will overflow" which is perfectly acceptable. Rejoicing is not the same as proud confidence. Greek words often have multiple meanings, and the ones used in these verses can mean to glory, to boast, to joy, or to rejoice, depending on the context and intent. All the modern versions will at times render these words as "to rejoice", "to joy", or "to exult". It is when they translate them so as to make pride and boasting in oneself a Christian virtue rather than a sin that they clearly have perverted the true words of God.

Philippians 2:16 KJB, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishop's, Geneva, Young's, Webster's, KJV 21, NKJV, and theThird Millenium Bible : "that I may REJOICE in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

NASB: "in the day of Christ I may have REASON TO GLORY because I did not run in vain"

NIV: "in order that I MAY BOAST in the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing."

RSV, ESV "so that in the day of Christ I MAY BE PROUD that I did not run in vain."

Nobody will be boasting or proud of his personal accomplishments in the day of the Lord Jesus; we will all be flat on our faces worshipping the Lamb who alone is worthy to receive praise, honour and glory.

Will Kinney

 

Craig posts: "Therefore, unless the Holy Spirit should clearly show me to do otherwise, I will no longer be responding to your posts."

Craig, you never did respond in the sense of giving a direct answer to any of my questions. You talked around them, but never directly answered them, so I don't think much will be missed by your absence.

I suspect you found I was not easily hoodwinked or satisfied by your evasive generalities and that you would be exposed as just another scholar wannabe with no inspired Bible and no Final authority other than your own mind and preferences.

If at any time in the future you think you would like to actually discuss these issues and not disappear when your bluff is called, I will be glad to do so.

Will K