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Priest of Medjugorje Visons of Mary Defrocked

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Marcia, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    I imagine God knew not to let people know where Moses was buried...people would go worship him. Anyone who prays to "Mary" is no better than one praying to Buddha or Mohammad. There is only one mediator and that's the way it is.....its not up for debate with God. To me Roman Catholicism has so much heresies "lies" in it that one needs flee from it asap.
     
  2. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I heard or read somewhere about a theory that God buried Moses Himself. Has anyone else ever heard of that?
     
  3. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day. Deuteronomy 34:6 God buried Moses"the Law"...but raised Christ"Grace"! :godisgood:
     
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thanks. I did not know that was in scripture. :eek:

    I guess it' more than a theory, huh? :laugh:
     
  5. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Agnus...

    The problem here is that the scriptures strongly teach us to never take into consideration tradition in order to do determine truth, but rather it is scriptures alone we are to heed...


     
  6. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Medjgagorie is actually one of several demonic manifistations visibly masqurading as "Mary" that have occured.

    I believe the most recent was involving a woman named Veronica Leuken in Bayside, Long Island NY back in the early 1980's, I believe. There was...and might still be...a radio broadcast devoted to propagating the various "messages" from heaven supposedly given by the demonic manifestation masquarading as Mary the earthly mother of Christ. I think the Catholic Church has tried to distance themselves from these messages, which is quite odd considering its past acceptance of these sort of manifestations.

    Click here...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronica_Lueken
     
    #46 Alive in Christ, Aug 5, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2009
  7. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    AC, it doesn't exactly say that. The most we can infer here is that we are to reject the traditons of men. We are to hold to the traditions of God.
    Also, I guess it's fair to assume that you don't observe Christmas as a religious holiday.
     
  8. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    Oh, so you're suggesting Mary never died, b/c scripture never mentioned it?

    In XC
    -
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Prayers to the dead - -what a concept.

    There is a Catholic Digest article that comes to mind where they argue that the prayers to the dead tradition was a stand-in for the former "family gods" and "pagan gods" kind of praying as Constantine tried to meld his pagan citizenry into a Christian mold.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Here is something the Scriptures teach which seems to refute your assertion:

    "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." 2 Thess 2:15

    Doesn't look like Paul would agree that we are to "never take into consideration tradition" in determining truth.

    EDIT: looks like Zenas beat me to it. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #50 Doubting Thomas, Aug 5, 2009
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  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Chronicles tells the story saying that "God became Saul's enemy" because he sought out a spiritist medium "inquiring of IT".

    Saul tells the woman to use her familiar spirit to "bring up for me whom I tell thee".

    The woman asks "Whom shall I bring up for thee".

    Samuel asks "why have you disturbed me by bringing me UP?" vs 15

    Satan's claim is that his servants have power to "bring up the dead" -- yes even dead saints.

    The demons play along with that story as they impersonate the dead.

    notice that in the story - Saul never claims to see anyone.

    Also notice that when the story is restated in Chronicles it tells us that God becomes Saul's enemy BECAUSE of this act!

    This means that as the demon is pronouncing the doom of Saul -- IT is gaining that ground by Saul's very act at the time in offending God by appealing to the demon to talk to him as if it is Samuel.

    Hence God's position is that "the dead know not anything" and is also "God is not the God of the dead" Matt 22.

    But Satan's position is "ask of me - whom do you wish for me to bring up for you".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If Jude is correct in quoting the "Assumption of Moses" as being fact - then that appears to be the case and would explain why the incident in Matt 17 is still in perfect harmony with scripture stating that we are not to commune with the dead.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    Christ is the One Mediator with God the Father, yet we are enjoined by St. Paul the Apostle, to pray for one another. St. Paul exhorts his readers to be imitators of him, just as he is of Christ.

    To affirm that Christ is the one Mediator would, logically, preclude our asking one another to pray for us. We should, in that event, simply go to Christ. Of what use then, is our prayer for one another? So how can it be that we are called upon to pray for one another?

    Simply put, when we put on Christ and become members of His Body that is the Church (and just as the Spirit rests on Christ, so too does the Spirit rest on His Body that is the Church), we too are called to become a "royal priesthood" and "priests, prophets and kings" as Scripture affirms in more than one place. We too participate in the one Priesthood of Christ and are called to intercede for the Church and the world in one Spirit, through Christ to the glory of God the Father.

    With respect to the issue of praying to Mary, Orthodox and Catholics and other Christians, simply honour her and the saints, asking for her prayers and that is all. To invoke Mary and the Saints is to ask them to pray for us as we are all part of the Communion of Saints, the Body of Christ. We are all alive in Christ and we are enjoined in a number of places in Scripture itself to pray for one another and, as the Epistle of James shows, the prayer of the righteous is most powerful with God.

    In XC
    -
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    So accordingly why could not Mary or anyother saint be spoken with defying what Marcia says here:

    BTW your argument is the same argument that the RCC uses to support prayers to the saints.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As a dead person -- God's word says they "can not do anything" and also "God is not the God of the dead" Matt 22. So that is Christ saying that the only solution for the dead is "the resurrection" (otherwise they would be stuck in a "God is not their God" condition as the only condition to reference present or even future as Paul notes in 1Cor 5).


    Hint - Catholics NEVER make the argument I am making. (They only argue the negative of what I am saying). Where I do agree with the Catholics is that if you ignore some of the clear Bible statements on this point you just might end up with the view that the seance in 1Sam 28 "was really Samuel being brought up from the dead" and you might end up with thinking of Matt 17 as another "seance" blessed by God... and then you would have a good case for your own "prayers to the dead" doctrine. There we agree - and they gladly ignore the required Bible texts to leap to that conclusion.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #55 BobRyan, Aug 5, 2009
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  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. But we are never asked to pray to the dead - nor do we have any example in all of scripture of anyone praying to the dead in obedience to Paul's instruction for the living to appeal to one another for intercessory prayers.

    How so?

    We do not offer the blood of Christ -- mediate the blood of the New Covenant on behalf of one another. Christ alone can do that according to Hebrews 7-9. We do not stand "as mediator between God and man" - Christ alone does that according to 1Tim 2. Notice that in Eph 6 where Paul asks for us to pray for him -- He does not say "pray that God will forgive me so that through your mediation in my behalf I will be able to find forgiveness of sins".

    But IF Paul DID argue such a thing - we would then be stuck with a "problem" when it comes to the point that Christ is the ONE Mediator between God and man. (Interesting that the pray for others statement of Paul is in the same chapter)

    Paul NEVER argues "do not go to Christ - instead go to each other"!!.

    Paul consistently calls for prayers on behalf of the saints and on behalf of all men - but not as "Mediators" but rather as co-petitioners who share the griefs and sorrows of the brethren. We are not mediators "between God and man" --- only Christ is!

    By contrast Christ through His own blood MEDIATES the New Covenant before God and "between God and man". There can only be one in that position.

    5 people going to the king asking for the same request as the one -- is the idea.

    But Christ's role would be as the Prince of the realm going before the King and petitioning on behalf of the people.

    Christ is ontologically God and man. He alone is the God-man and He alone offers His own sinless blood as the blood of the covenant -- offering it up before God as our High Priest in the Hebrews 7-9 Heavenly Sanctuary.

    There is no conflict at all in that regard - because none of us can do that -- no not even a little.

    Our role in the priesthood is to relay the truth of the Gospel to a fallen World. (One of the key roles of the OT priest). We are not mediating the blood of the sacrifice. Only Christ can do that -- and so He does as our High Priest.

    That is why John says in 1John 2:1 "I write these things that you sin not - but if anyone does sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous".

    He never says "But if you do sin - you have dead saints you can pray to -- and they will mediate forgiveness for you before God".


    To attempt any form of commuincation with the dead is forbidden in scripture.

    In Isaiah 8:19-20 God says that we should not attempt to consult the dead for requests/favors on behalf of the living.

    When we read the actual prayers that have been designed for Mary and other dead saints - we find that not only are people communicating with the dead - they are in fact consulting them "on behalf of the living".

    Indeed that is true for the living - but not the dead as God tells us in Isaiah 8:19.

    Specifically the act of trying to get the servant of satan to haul up Samuel from the dead is explicitly forbidden in Isaiah 8.

    But in your model -- it is merely a wonderful example of asking the righteous dead to provide help to the living.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Agnus,

    Nonsense.

    The Catholic Church and the Orthodox both engage in pure, very obvious goddess worship.

    It is extremely obvious.

    She is understood to have the power to hear prayers 24 hours a day from all over the world at the same time, attributing to her omnipresence. She is considered to be, and referred to as, the "Queen of Heaven" and the "mediatrix of all grace". She is in every sense, "high and lifted up"...as a goddess must be. In some countries, idols of her are paraded through the streets while her rapturous worshipers are in a state of extacy as they worship their "goddess".

    This is simply the truth, Agnus, and you know these things are true. No matter how much the Orthodox and the Catholics try to dupe people into believing otherwise, it is still the truth.

    These demonic manifestations are just one among the many ways that groups like the Catholic Church and the Orthodox group engage in goddess worship.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If this keeps up I am going to have to post some quotes of those prayers and Papal appeals to the "Queen of the Universe" -- "Mother of God" and co-redemptrix with Christ.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Not true they say the saints are alive and thus they can speak with them. They use your same argument that you mention about Moses on the Mt. of Transfiguration. That Jesus wasn't speaking with the dead but the living.
     
    #59 Thinkingstuff, Aug 5, 2009
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  20. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    As far a mother of God ( the others I cannot vouch for) you're mistaken about the intent of the term. Theotokos has everything to do with who Christ is. The debate originally was. Mary gave birth to a man that later was possessed by the Holy Spirit. Or that Jesus was not equall (homoosious) with the father. Theotokos was stated to assure that people understood Jesus was Homoosious with the father rather than being a demurge. The modern debate about Catholics and the Mother of God is from a point of ignorance. The modern debate somehow indicates that Mary gave birth to the invisible God being greater than God. But that only because people who assert this at the Catholic Church don't know their history and how the phrase came into being.
     
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