Primitive vs. Old Regular

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Sober_Baptist, Mar 18, 2007.

  1. Sober_Baptist

    Sober_Baptist
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    Can someone in a few paragraphs sum up the differences in doctrine and practice between Old School Primitive and Old Regular Baptists?

    I don't know much about the ORs, but would like to know how they differ; they seem at first glance very close to me.


    Thanks!
     
  2. Bro. James Reed

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    From one Primitive Baptist to another, they look about the same to me as well.

    We do have much more in common, theologically speaking, with the ORs of the Sovereign Grace variety.

    We use real, fermented wine in communion, many ORs do not.

    We have many churches that use indoor baptistries, many ORs do not.

    We typically sing from hymnals with a written tune to each song, many ORs do not. (That may be incorrect, but there is definitely a difference in our style of singing, the way a song is written, with 4-part harmony, and at a pretty normal beat, while many ORs lineout songs, in a very slow and steady manner. Just through casual listening of their online singing, I have trouble hearing the tunes to different songs that I am familiar with. I don't know if that is for a lack of musical notes in the books, or the particular way they learned the tune...we also make slight changes to some tunes that we have known for many years.) I think the singing is more along the lines of geographic location than just OR practice. I believe the PBs in that area of the country sing in a very similar style, if not exactly the same.

    I believe ORs tend to be more strict about women cutting their hair and wearing pants to church. Not sure about make-up and jewelry though. (You try to take away my Mama's make-up and rings and see what it gets you.:laugh: )

    I had an appoint at the PB church in Merryville, Louisiana this morning. Left the house at 5:30am to get there. Just a little further and I'll still be a long ways off from Kentucky and Virginia.:laugh:
     
  3. convicted1

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    RE: ORBS vs PBs

    I have never attended an PB church, but the ones around here, I am told, are quite similiar in style to the ORB's services. I am told they line their songs like the ORBs do, preach a travail from nature to grace....some call the travail, travel instead...the ORBs use this verbage as well. The only major thing that seperates the PB from the ORB is the predisination theology. No ORB member will openly tell you they believe, or preach this, eventhough I would not be surprised if they did believe it. The Sardis Association of ORBs started in 1893? because some in the Mate's Creek Assoc of PBs did not believe in the predestination doctrine. There may be some other things that they differ in, but I am not of of anything else.
     
  4. tinytim

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    Aren't ORs Arminian, and PBs Calvinists?

    Hence the word, "regular" instead of "particular"
    I think I read on Wiki this week that they are similar except for this point.
     
  5. amity

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    We'll have to wait til Brother Bob gets here, probably, but I think Old Regulars are 4-point Calvinists.
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    I can only speak for the Old Regular Baptists of which I belong for there are different beliefs among us. Some still hold to the "Old School of predestination", but not us.
    Old Regulars don't believe predestination as the Primitives believe it. We (First Sardis Association churches) were Primitive Baptists but split off over Hyper-predestination of where they begin to preach as God being the author of sin.

    ARTICLES OF FAITH
    OF THE
    ASSOCIATION
    ARTICLE 1. We believe in only one true and living God; the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost; and these three are one, equal in power, essence and glory.
    ARTICLE 2. We believe the scripture of the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized King James Version of the Bible are the written words of God and are the only rules of faith and practice.
    ARTICLE 3. We believe in the doctrine of election by grace, for by grace are ye saved through faith.
    ARTICLE 4. We believe in the doctrine of original sin and of man's inability to recover himself from the fallen state he is in by nature, therefore the Saviour is needed for our redemption.
    ARTICLE 5. We believe that sinners are called to repentance and believe in the Gospel and regeneration of the soul and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and none shall fall away and be lost.
    ARTICLE 6. We believe that sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.
    ARTICLE 7. We believe that baptism is the ordinance of God's Church on earth and the mode IMMERSION, back foremost, so as to cover all over.
    ARTICLE 8. We believe that the Lord's Supper is the command of the Saviour, and that by use of bread and the fruit of the vine, and feet washing should be kept up until his second coming by his believers.
    ARTICLE 9. We believe in the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust, and that the joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked shall be eternal.
    ARTICLE 10. We believe that no Minister has the right to administer the ordinances and commands of the Gospel except such as are regularly ordained and baptized, and that by immersion by a legal administrator of the Gospel comes under the hands of a regularly chosen presbytery of the Church.
    ARTICLE 11. We believe it to be the duty of all Church members to contribute for defraying all reasonable expenses of the Church, never forgetting the poor according to their several abilities.
    ARTICLE 12. We believe that every doctrine that goes to encourage or indulge people in their sins or cause them to settle down on anything short of saving faith in Christ for salvation is erroneous, and such doctrine shall be rejected by us.
    ARTICLE 13. We believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is a congregation of faithful believers in Christ who have obtained fellowship with the Lord and one another, and have given themselves to the Lord and have agreed to keep up a Godly discipline according to the rules of the Gospel.
    ARTICLE 14. We believe that Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and the government thereof is upon His Shoulders.
    ARTICLE 15. We believe that a sanctioned marriage of God is between a man and a woman only. Also, we believe in receiving members into our fellowship that follow the natural dating relationship that leads to holy matrimony between a man and a woman only: thereby, preserving the family unit of father, mother and children. Ephesians 5:22,23 and 28, St. Mark 10:6,7,8 and Romans 1:26 and 27.
    ARTICLE 16. None of the above Articles shall be considered as to hold with particular election and reprobation so as to make God partial, directly or indirectly, nor to injure any of the children of men, nor shall any of those Articles be altered without legal notice and free consent.
     
    #6 Brother Bob, Mar 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2007
  7. rsr

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    Tim: "Regular" was interchangeable with "Particular" in early American usage.
     
  8. Bro. James Reed

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    Bro. Bob,

    The Primitives in Texas split along these lines around the same time as y'all did...maybe a few years later. The group that held to the Absolute Predestination of all things has nearly died out. I don't know of their exact numbers, Bro. Robert Vaughn might know this, but they are very few as compared to the "Old Line", or mainstream, of Primitives here.

    It's interesting to me that we "Old Liners" will also refer to ourselves as "Old School", yet it seems that in the Kentucky/Virginia/West Virgina areas that "Old School" is synonymous with what we would call "Absoluters". I'm not sure of the reason for the difference in terminology.

    You would think since Primitives in Texas and Primitives/Old Regulars in Kentucky split over the same thing, absolute predestination, that we would believe the same things today, yet we do not.

    In fact, I would venture to guess that the Old Liners here today have more in common with the Absoluters there than we do with the Old Regulars. Would that be right?
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    Yes, that is right Bro. James
     
  10. amity

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    Hopefully Robert Vaughn will chime in with some good info. But meanwhile I just wanted to point out some of the info on the Baptist family that he has posted on his blog site over the months. I thought this was very interesting:

    http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/search?q=absolute+predestinarian

    He says in one of the comments on the "Baptist Groups in the United States" thread, near the bottom, that there are possibly as many as 57 local associations of absolute predestinarian PBs (though 15 associations among that number may no longer exist) and at least 34 independent churches. No breakdown by state.
     
  11. Sober_Baptist

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    Since my original post I have listened to some OR singing and, while very spiritual, it is indeed quite a bit more drawn out than the PBs. I thought the PBs were "slow" singers, but you never are too old to learn.
     
  12. Bro. James Reed

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    Compared to other Baptist groups, PBs are very slow singers, on average, especially in older and/or rural churches. But, most ORs would put us to shame in the slow-singing category.:laugh:
     
  13. Jeff Weaver

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    Howdy

    I might be able to add some insight here since I live in the midst of both ORB, Regular Baptists, and Primitives.

    1st, all come from the same background, a blend of regular and seperate baptists from the late 18th century.

    2nd. the term primitive or regular primitive came into the vernacular in Appalachia in the mid-19th century. This was after the Primitive/Missionary split of the 1830s.

    3rd. During the American civil War, some Primitives supported the Union cause, leading to another break, and the formation of the Union or Regular Baptists (without the appelation "Old") These Unionists Primitive Baptists joined with Unionist Missionary Baptists in forming the Mountain Union Association of Regular Baptists. The common local term for them is "Union Baptists" but they use the term "Regular" when referring to themselves to anyone who isn't local. These churches are in extreme NWNC, adjacent areas of Virginia and where migrant colonies formed new churches in Maryland and Pennsylvania.

    4th. The group(s) commonly known as Old Regular Baptists split with Primitives in the late 1880s and early 1890s over whether or not Christ tasted death for every man, and issues revolving around what the extent of predestination was/is. There are some small groups of Old Regulars who are very nearly identical with Primitives, but others are like Bro. Bob's fellowship circle.

    In Appalachia, where there are numerous groups of Primiives and Old Regulars the singing is very nearly identical. Primitives would object to the theology of some of the songs sung in Old Regular churches however, but the singing style is nearly indistinguishable.

    In matters of church order, Regulars would probably be more strict in some areas, such as clothing and hair than Primitives are, but Primitives are probably more strict in their toleration of issues of immorality. I am sure there are exceptions, but this has been my annecdotal observation.

    Another observation that I am sure will be disputed is in the style of preaching, and there are exceptions. As a general thing, though, Old Regulars tend to appeal more to the emotion, while Primitives tend to appeal more to the intellect. (And I can name numerous exceptions to this from personal interaction with both groups.)

    Regulars (aka Union Baptists), Old Regulars and Primitives in Appalachia all have their share of problems with ministers and ignorance.

    I say this as a Primitive Baptist elder, with a Old Regular Baptist grandfather who was a minister among them.

    Running for cover before :tonofbricks:

    Jeff
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    No need to run Jeff, I agree with you.

    Sorry Brother James but I was in bed and felt it needful that I expound a little farther on this subject. The Old Regular Baptists have their share of exorters for sure and may have more than the Primitive, I am not sure. Ignorance? is only because they do not apply themselves, it is not for lack of education for we have many college educated, teachers, business men and women etc. We in the Old Regular Baptists have some of the most able doctrine preachers that I know of and we have those who just reach the emotions.
    If you really want to know what kind of people we are, you should read some of the really old minutes and circular letters. I am amazed at the intelligence of those old timers, who had very little education of men, but great education of God.

    When we are in funerals it would be hard to tell someone was a Primitive, for they do not get on predestination or the "elect" but now preach "God's children". A lay person or worldly person would never know the difference, but I know what they mean when they say "God's children". Also, the primitive have backed off of some of the doctrine concerning infants. They may still believe it, but they do not get on it when I hear them preach. I listen to them and they preach almost identical what I would be preaching. The singing of the Primitive have changed as the Old Regular's have. I hear them singing now without lining the songs. Many of them buy my song book for years and use it in their meetings. They get together at homes and sing, using my song book. I have all kinds of songs in it, the ones you line, the ones we sing growing up and the new songs that have been written. I don't believe that the only ones who could write songs are all already dead. Its here on BB that we really get to the nitty gritty and maybe offend sometimes.
    Anyway, we all must do as we feel the Lord is leading us. We must preach what we believe to be the truth. I am like Brother Jeff said, I believe in preaching the WORD.
     
    #14 Brother Bob, Mar 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2007
  15. Bro. James Reed

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    How absurd. Two Baptists agreeing on something?!?!:laugh:

    Edited to say:

    OK, Bro. Bob, you spoiled it. I thought the Baptist agreement was too good to last.

    Just joshing you, brother.

    Have a good night and a pleasant tomorrow.
     
    #15 Bro. James Reed, Mar 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2007
  16. Bro. James Reed

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    This is the type of singing I'm used to hearing here, although we sing a bit slower than they do in these recordings, and we tend to sometimes slide the scale, or slur, rather than hitting each individual note (there's a musical term for that, but I can't recall it). That would give us a mix between what is on this website and what Appalachian churches practice, though we do sound much more like the church on this website.

    Follow the link on the left side for Congregational Singing:
    http://www.flintriverpbc.org/
     
  17. amity

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  18. Bro. James Reed

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    Thank you sister. I had not noticed this section of Old Union's website before.

    I have never been to the Rich Mountain Assoc., but my mother and grandparents used to go when my mother was a child. I'd like to make it up there someday.

    Ye Friends of the Saviour is one of my all-time favorites. That is probably Elder Harold Horn's favorite song. I can hear him singing that, and stomping his foot, at the Hubbard Church. That's memories right there. :thumbs:

    btw, Bro. Sonny tends to lead songs a bit faster than we do as well. I guess that's the California hippie coming out in him.:laugh:
     
  19. amity

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    I will tell Bro. Sonny you said he was a California hippie and see if he agrees! He probably would, actually.

    Funny you should mention the only two PB churches where I have heard actual shouting. That is my most vivid memory of both of them. You would probably like Rich Mountain Association a lot. I haven't been in a few years because it comes at an unfortunate time of the year for me, but will try to go this year.

    Don't get around much anymore. I wish I could tell you what my favorite song is, but there are so many favorites. I think for right now it has to be a song called Sweet Harmony. The only PB songbook that has it (AFAIK) is the Good Old Songs.

    O tell me no more of this world’s vain store,
    The time for such trifles with me now is o’er;
    A country I’ve found where true joys abound,
    To dwell I’m determined on that happy ground.

    No mortal doth know what Christ can bestow,
    What joy, strength, and comfort do after Him, go;
    Lo, onward I move to see Christ above,
    None guesses how wondrous my journey will prove.

    Great spoils I shall win from death, hell, and sin,
    ’Midst outward afflictions shall feel Christ within;
    And still, which is best, I in His dear breast,
    As at the beginning find pardon and rest.

    When I am to die, “Receive me,” I’ll cry,
    For Jesus hath loved me, I cannot tell why:
    But this I do find, we two are so joined,
    He’ll not in live in glory and leave me behind.

    This blessing is mine through favor divine,
    And, O my dear Jesus, the praise shall be Thine;
    In heaven we'll meet in harmony sweet,
    And, glory to Jesus! we'll then be complete.​
     
    #19 amity, Mar 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2007
  20. Bro. James Reed

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    That song is in the new Primitive Baptist Hymnal that we use. It's one of Elder Ron Smith's favorites. We learned it from him.

    Speaking of shouting, the Texas Association was held last year in August at Pt. Enterprise, outside Mexia. The air conditioner went out and it was 103 degrees outside. Regardless, that is one of the most powerful meetings I've ever been to. We were all dying from the heat, but our spirits were so uplifted that there was much shouting. This one brother stood up in the middle of Elder Trey Collier's sermon and was crying and shouting "Yes! Yes! He's here!" He just couldn't contain himself. It was very moving.

    I wish I had a nickel for everytime I've heard shouting at Hubbard. That is my 2nd home church. I am related to almost everyone in that church. My g grandparents and gg grandparents were in on the Constitution of that church. My mother and grandmother were both baptized into that church before our church down here was constituted. My gg uncle, Elder Lonnie Horn, was their pastor for 22 years, and my g uncle, Elder James Henthorn, was their pastor for 25. I've got a lot of family history and memories in that church.
     

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