Problems denying infant baptism

Now ask yourself who is being spoken to here. They are non-believers, the process is different for non-believers than it is for a believer and his family.

 

Would someone please show me Scripture to infants and children. We are represented as trees in the Scriptures and I have never read where a Scripture is to a little bush.

 

Been over this Bob you are just chossing not to see the truth. Show me where it talks about the children of believers needing to be baptized. Everyone that is baptized is a non-believer, everyone that is told they need to be baptized are NON-BELIEVERS, once the head or father is baptized his entire household is baptized, we are not told the household was baptized because they believed also. The same way circumsision was applied in the Old Testament to entire households.

 

HP: Can an unsaved individual be in possession of the Holy Spirit?

 

Sounds like a very reformed perspective.

Thank God I am a Baptistic Christian.

 

HP: While we wait on BD17 to respond, would you help me out and explain to me what a Baptistic Christian is? Thanks.

 

Romans 2 points out that Circumcision in OT and NT was to be "of the heart and by the Holy Spirit" -- this is believers being born again.

Romans 10 gives us the formula for salvation starting with believing and confessing.

! Peter 3 makes it clear that we are talking explicitly aboutu "an appeal to God for a clean conscience".

In all cases the "household LISTENS to the Word of God and is Baptized". We are never told that those who do not actually HEAR it (i.e. infants) were also baptized!

 

Since when did we start baptising the unbeliever? The Scripture says "what hindereth them from being baptised seeing they have received the Holy Spirit same as we". Again, could you answer HP's question "can unsaved children have the Holy Spirit"?

 

One thing we do different in our Church, we have candidates for Baptism go through new members class (6 weeks) to assure they understand the Church, the need of a savior and why they are being baptized. I know there is no scriptoral foundation for this sequence but it sure saves on baptizing folks you never see again...

Does anyone believe the baptism should be upon the confession of ones faith?

 

HP: IMO it should not be our end to ensure that we keep those we baptize around in our particular denomination or group at all. We simply should be willing to allow for and facilitate the biblical mandate to be baptized as a public profession of faith, not denominational allegiance. (I know that you never said it was for any denominational allegiance, but some might see your comments as suggesting that it might be to insure such allegiance.)

I see no reason not to baptize at profession of faith, yet I would prefer the desire to come from the individual to do so, not some mandated church practice. Some might have knowledge and a conviction to be baptized at profession, while others may come to this knowledge later. I would again prefer to see the need to be baptized come from the individual rather than by a suggestion from the church as to when they should, whether or not that is at the point of belief or later on in their walk with the Lord.

 

We let a person tell their experience of faith and then make a move and second to receive them for baptism and ask them when they want to be baptized and where do they want their membership. If a person didn't want to be baptized right away after 3 months we would annul the work of baptizing them unless they had a good excuse for not being baptized. We don't particular care for "dry land " baptist.

 

Baptism & Circumcision

These terms are analogous only in that they are signs, symbols of something--more like signs of covenants. Neither has anything to do with the washing away of sin--done only by the innocent blood--Jesus paid it all. In the OT, if circumcision washed away sin, how did the females get washed?

While it may be established that the baptism(actually sprinkling) of infants has been practiced by nominal Christianity for many centuries, it is still an unscriptural practice. Millions of defenders of "the Faith once for all delivered to the saints" were martyred during the Dark Ages+--refusing to baptize their infants.

There is no biblical directive to baptize infants; in fact, to the contrary, infants cannot hear nor receive the gospel.

Curiously, the Bible accounts of conversion show baptism following conversion. "they that gladly received the word were baptized..." Infants are not capable of such things, nor do they need such ritual. "In vain ye do worship, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
More salvation by works--it never works.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

when you look at mark 16:16 it says he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. but he who does not believe will be damned. When you look this we see the requirement of baptism for salvation, but you have to believe, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. but why doesn't it say he who doesn't believe and is not baptized will be damned. here i will ask a question, if you don't believe then why would you even want to be baptized? Infant baptism has nothing to do with this verse. it actually goes against it because it say that you have to believe and be baptized to be saved. infants can't believe.

I heard a story once about a baby being baptized while a preacher who didn't believe in infant baptism was there( they immersed the baby) and it starting crying and everything. so the next day that preacher was giving a lesson and he grabbed the guy who baptized the infant and said come here, and the man said why, he said im going to baptize you and he said i don't want to you can't force me. then the preacher said now you know how the baby felt.

In Christian Love,

Dustin

 

You ever notice this verse in the Acts? I believe this is Jesus talking to Saul...

22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

The reason I mentioned profession of faith;

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

While in the pool, I ask the candidate, "have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal savior". Once they asnwer, I say, "upon profession of this bro/sis faith, I now baptize you etc...

From my perspective it would be hard for an infant to profess their faith. I'm not trying to choose who should and shouldn't be baptized. I mean, I'd baptize a dog or a cat if they can profess their acceptanse of the Lord Jesus Christ (no, just kidding but you guys know what I mean).

But I do hear a profession of faith said with the believers (those at Church) as witnesses.

 

Where does the Bible talk of the need of children being baptized. It doesn't--whether they be saved or unsaved. The Bible does not speak of the baptism of children. The baptism of young children (especially infants) is totally unBiblical. There is no case in the Bible on any child every being baptized. The argument for such is an argument from silence, just like the assumption of Mary
I suppose your argument would be the children of the Philippian jailor.
The jailor had four children: three sons and a daughter. The three sons were already married, and the daughter was 18. None of the married children had any children of their own. How do I know that historical information?? The same way that you know that "household" automatically refers to infants. You can't make an argument from silence!

"Everyone that is baptized is a non-believer." What heresy is this that is being spouted. Show me one individual in the Bible that is an unbeliever being baptized. There is no such incident--ever!!
There were 3,000 saved on the day of Pentecost, and then those saved individuals were baptized. Salvation first; then baptism.
The jailor was saved first; then baptized.
The Ethiopian eunuch was first saved, and then baptized.
Saul was first saved, and then baptized.
And on and on, through out the New Testament it is. No unsaved individual is ever baptized. I realize you come from a Presbyterian background. But at least try to defend your position from the Bible instead of simple opinion or unsubstantiated statements.
DHK

 

Dhk I did not mean un-believer, I meant they did not believe while they were being evangelized to. Of course if they believed they were baptized. Forgive me for my obvious mistype.

It is not an argument from silence. Household can infer infants, are you willing to tell me that in every household that was baptized there was not a single infant. To believe that is ridiculous. Besides baptism in the new testament is equivalent to circumcision in the old. And what is the context of the baptisms!! Have you noticed that not one single person that was baptized came from a believing family. They were all unbelievers before they became believers, the process is different for them than it would be for some one who grew up in a believing household.

 

Part of the problem here is that the NT instances of baptism are (the ambiguity of the Philippian jailor's oikos aside) to do with first-generation adult converts to the new faith of Christianity. The NT does not record what if anything should be done with the subsequent children of those converts and succeeding generations, possibly because this was an issue that did not arise in the NT period

 

Exactly Matt and it would be safe to say that succeding generations would do what they did with circumcision in the Old Testament. That being they would baptize their infant children. Context is everything.

 

That is right. There is not a single household that has an infant that was baptized, ever! Infants cannot believe. That is an impossibllity, and a condition of salvation, which is also a condition for baptism. The household that Paul was referring to may be looked upon as household in general and if infants--then if raised according to the Scriptures in future will become saved according the promises of the Word of God.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

That is not a promise that a person is saved at infancy. A person can only be saved when he is old enough to believe; old enough to call upon the name of the Lord; old enough to make a choice for himself. The promise of the "household, may refer to Prov.22:6. Or it may refer to the household in general. But it does not refer to infants. We know that. The Bible does not contradict itself. You can't force your thelogy into the Bible, try to make it fit, when it is obvious that it doesn't.

It is also apparent that circumcision and baptism have nothing in common.
Every believer must be baptized. In the OT only the males had to be circumcised. This the flaw of covenantal theology. To carry out the analogy you must deny baptism to women; or compel Jews to circumcise their women--a horrible and painful practice, I can assure you. Which is it? You must be consistent. Since You already know what Biblical Judaism teaches, then you must deny women of being baptized, if you are consistent in your logic.

But entrance into the family of God is not dependant on baptism or circumcision (thankfully). It is dependant on the new birth (which has nothing to do with baptism). It is dependant on a person's salvation, that date when he chose to put his faith in Christ. There is no case in the Bible of any infant being baptized. Your argument is out of silence. You have an argument that is as rock solid as baptism saving donkeys. There is no case for donkeys to be saved whether they be baptized or not. And there is no case for infants to be baptized. You can't make an argument from silence. "Whosoever shall call upon the name of he Lord shall be saved." I have never heard an infant call on the Lord yet, and I have had a number of children myself.
DHK

 

Infant Baptism

Fundamentalists often criticize certain denominations practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children, because it is to be administered only after one has undergone a "born again" experience—that is, after one has "accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior." At the instant of acceptance, when he is "born again," the adult becomes a Christian, and his salvation is assured forever. Baptism follows, though it has no actual salvific value. In fact, one who dies before being baptized, but after "being saved," goes to heaven anyway.

As Fundamentalists see it, baptism is not a sacrament (in the true sense of the word), but an ordinance. It does not in any way convey the grace it symbolizes; rather, it is merely a public manifestation of the person’s conversion. Since only an adult or older child can be converted, baptism is inappropriate for infants or for children who have not yet reached the age of reason (generally considered to be age seven). Most Fundamentalists say that during the years before they reach the age of reason infants and young children are automatically saved. Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to "accept Jesus" in order to reach heaven.

Since the New Testament era, the true christian has always understood baptism differently, teaching that it is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons.

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."