Problems with Orthodoxy and Catholicism

Oh you got that off of Wikipedia.... IE you havent studied him.

how about Francis Bacon......anything to get off of this topic.

 

There is sufficient documents to prove all these charges as false. The "key of truth" demonstrates they believed in the Old Testament scriptures and in the ordinances. They were charged so by Rome because they rejected the ordinances as interpreted by Rome. They rejected the Old Testament as interpreted by Rome.

 

Which primary source documents would these be?

 

The Key of truth - primary souce material from Paulicians
Recognition by Catholic Encylopedia in article on Paulicians that they knew the Paulicians denied such charges and they list documents

 

Did the Paulican's teach that Christ - the one on earth/physical was really an angel and created?

 

No, they did not.
Here is some information about the Paulicians:

From:

A CONCISE HISTORY OF THE BAPTISTS

By G.H. Orchard

 

The Paulicians were spread all over Europe. Those who merged with the Waldenses did not teach that idea. Those in the area where the "key of truth" originated did teach that idea. The Paulicans can be traced in a movement across Europe from the seventh to the tenth century where they merged or came under the name of groups already in that locality. Hence, it depends upon which name, and which locality they are found and in what particular time. The records by Roman persecutors do not always agree with each other about what they did or didn't believe. Hence, admittedly there is some ambiguity and ambiguity should be expected as they were not allowed to always explain what they believed for themselves.

Those who have studied these groups without a Roman Catholic bias believe that there is room to believe that not all who were herded together under the same degrading epitaphs were guilty of all they have been charged with.

 

Better stated than my feebele attempts

 

Thanks. I've now downloaded that and read it and am still persuaded that they are heretical, not least for their Adoptionist Christology.
Whilst they may have rejected pedo-baptism they nevertheless believed that both Baptism and Communion were sacraments essential to salvation and believed in some form of transubstantiation.

As Bro James would say, now what?

 

Pity you don't give Catholics the same benefit of the doubt.

 

Im suggesting another one mate.:thumbs:

 

You know i Love TA...not to be confused with ..... nope not going there!:thumbs:

PS: & Bonaventure

 

Not this time Dr. Walter - actually your response gave more detail and granularity to the question. You actually considered time, place and culture in your response, which is far more accurate when discussing historical belief systems. Impressive sir.

Although a Baptist myself, I noticed the Concise History of the Baptist's response did the same thing you accuse Rome of doing. They lumped all the Paulicans together in one broad sweeping brush.

But here is my problem with groups like this (Paulicans, etc).

They started out as you admit ( I assume there is some evidence for this) with Manichean beliefs - not even getting the essence of who Jesus was. This is pretty gross heresy. That isn't what bothers me personally.

What really bothers me is that starting from a position of gross heretical error - they were groping. They didn't have any 'deposit' of faith given or taught to them. They were inventing new doctrines. They were not only schismatic, but heretical. They didn't even have a complete cannon of Scripture. They were piece mealing, making things up as they went, hoping they were right.

Truth may have been stumbled upon through history - but these guys didn't recieve it from anybody in my mind.

Edit - They didn't like Rome or heirarchy - good for them. But who among us doesn't always like the boss? New Gospels? No thanks. Stick to hating Rome.

 

Agreed. :thumbs:

 

Where is your evidence for this?
As Orchard states, and gives plenty of reference material for it:

That doesn't mean they once believed Manichean beliefs; it means they never believed it, but were falsely accused of it, and were constantly battling that false accusation. They called it "an injustice."

 

They did not start out as manichean. From the seventh century they repudiated that charge and it was noted by Rome and recorded by Gibbons. They continued to repudiate that charge. "The Key of Truth" comes from about tenth or eleventh century from one isolated geographical area whereas the Paulicians were spread out all over Europe in the precise places where they were called Catharists by some and later Waldenses by others. The Waldenses deny that their name originates from Peter Waldo but rather from the term that has reference to the high mountain valleys where they took refuge from Roman persecutors "vallenses." Their early pre-reformation confessions of faith repudiate any idea of Manicheanism and embrace the evangelical gospel and repudiate infant baptism. Later one specific group of Waldenses living in France were converted over to Presbyterianism and adopted infant baptism while the greater portion of Waldenses integrated under another degrading title "Anabaptists" where there are clear records of former Waldense ministers called Anabaptist ministers.

All of these groups (Paulicians, Catharists, Waldenses, Anabaptists) claimed historical succession from the apostolic churches. All of them equally claimed to have been persecuted by Rome and their beliefs intentionally perverted by Rome in order to bring them under the death penalty of secular but ecclesiastical laws.

Some have objected to my use of the term "room." However, take into consideration the obvious pagan characteristics of the Roman Catholic Church, their history of butchery, their union with secular state, their obvious false teachings in regard to essentials to the gospel and their admission and confession by recent popes of their former treacheries in killing other professed saints and I believe there is more than sufficient "room" to take the word of the persecuted and distorted over the word of the persecutors and distorters.