Progressvie dispensationalism

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Barry2, Sep 3, 2003.

  1. Barry2

    Barry2
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    Hello,

    Anybody familiar with progressive dispensationalism? It's something new to me. i got a book about it and I'm starting to read it. Seems to me to be a cross between covenant and dispensational thinking. Anybody knowledgable on this theory?

    Barry2
     
  2. mesly

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    Hi Barry,

    I have been reading about it. It does seem like a cross between Covenant and Traditional Dispensational (TD) theology. Interestingly, there is a new (?) theological movement from the Covenant side called, New Covenant Theology (NCT). NCT seems to be moving more towards Dispensationalism while PD seems to be moving towards Covenant Theology.

    There are some issues with TD that PD seems to be addressing. That doesn't mean that PD has all of the answers, but it does provide more continuity between Israel and the Church.

    I am no expert on this, but I would certainly enjoy discussing PD with you. What are your views on it?
     
  3. Pete Richert

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    PD and NCT are very close. Their main difference might simply be their eschotology and PD belief in a future politcal state of Isreal (while many NCT believe in a future inbring of "all" Jews into the church).

    PD basically moves away from the classic dispensatinoal thinking by stating that some OT prophecies are being partically fullfulled in the Church, though they still wait their complete consumation (sp?) in the millenium. Classic Dispy wouldn't allow any such continuity with the Church and Isreal. PD also assert the Christ is now reigning on the throne of David (though it won't hit full consumation until he is on the earthly thrown in the millenium) while classic Dispy deny this vehemently.

    Which PD book are you reading? I read "Progessive Dispensationalism" by Blaising and Bock. They only present PD without contrasting it with Classic Dispy, or with CT, or NCT so it was hard to see the differences (this is because I didn't have enough knowledge of other systems to really compare). I then read "Dispensationalism" by Ryrie and that helped clear up some of the disagreements. I am now reading NCT by Wells and Zaspel but they are more contrasting themsevles with CT then Disp. so once again I will have to really pay attention to see differences.
     
  4. Barry2

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    Hello,

    The Progressive dispensational book I'm reading is By Blaising & Brock. You really have to think while reading it and you tend to get bogged down in thought. As a result I'm moving slowly thru it. PD does solve some problems for me, especailly the inanguration of the new covenant in the church today which just can't be denied. But PD seems to be mid trib so far and I don't quite know about that. Actually I'm not sure there will be a physical millenium at all. To tell you the truth, I don't know where I stand on eschatolgy anymore. The More I study the more errors I see on all positions. NCT seems to me to be a calvinist system of theology. I admit that there are many things interesting and inviting in PD that I'll be looking into.

    Barry2
     
  5. mesly

    mesly
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    Here is a good resources that I have found on the web that explains PD very well:

    The Last Trumpet (he is Post Trib., but that isn't a factor in PD):

    http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/

    Look on the left hand side under "Dispensationalism". He has a good PD 101 series.

    You might find the teachings here easier to digest that the book you are reading.

    Interesting enough, the timing of the rapture and whether or not Jesus is on the Thone of David now is not really an issue with PD (some believe and some don't). After reviewing the above site, I would appreciate hearing your comments.
     
  6. Pete Richert

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    I haven't read measly's link yet but I have a few thoughts to respond to barry. NCT is a Calvinist system. My understanding was the most if not all PD believers are usually calvinist too.

    Blaising and Bock are still pretrib believers, as I believe most PD's are. It is Ryrie's contention though that it is only a matter of time before PD followers start switching over to post-trib and just becoming historic premillinielists.

    I don't know if there is a future millenium either. I am rather torn on the subject.
     
  7. Pete Richert

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    The link isn't working in my netscape browser, so I will have to wait til tonight.
     
  8. Barry2

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    Mesly,

    I read all the last trumpet stuff Before I got the PD books. Those sites especiall PD 101 102 were interesting to say the least. Wish someone had a PD basic theology book out. They would do well to grasp the idea that if they want a huge folowing to break the high theo lingo down so it's waiste high- middle of the plate. Sure is a whole lot more common folks than theologians.

    Barry2
     
  9. mesly

    mesly
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    Ryrie might be correct. If the account in Matthew about the end-times is for the church, then it validates the post-trib position. If, on the other hand, the Gospel of Matthew is NOT for the church, but rather the Nation of Israel (i.e. the position of traditional dispensationalism), then you can easily come to a pre-trib position. PD includes the Gospels as for the church, so its easy to see why Ryrie makes that statement.

    Although I have subscribed to traditional dispensational theology, I have always struggled with the problem of what to do with the Gospels. PD seems to resolve this problem for me, but this brings up many issues that need to be re-thought, including the pre/post trib position.
     
  10. mesly

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    Barry, I agree with you. Are you finding much difference between what Tim Warner (Last Trumpet) and what Blaising/Block have written?

    I am surprised to see that there are only two (possibly three) books on Amazon.com written about PD. When you figure in that PD has been around as a formal theology for about 12 to 15 years, you would think that you could find more books about it.

    Overall, I think that Tim Warner has done an excellent job by "making it simple".
     
  11. IfbReformer

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    Progressive Dispensationalism was greatly influenced from it conception by Historic Premillenialists like George Ladd. You should look him up, he wrote many books on prophecy and systematic theology.

    The two are not identical, but to the casual reader it will almost seem that way. The Progressive Dispensationalist does not maintain the radical distinction between New Testament Saints and Israel.

    I am still in the process of trying to find the exact differences between PDs and my camp historic premillenialists.

    IFBReformer
     
  12. Pete Richert

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    Ryrie has stated that he doesn't think it will be too long before PD's join your camp. I would like to take a guess though at a current difference. From Tim's website, it would appear he believes that only Jewish Christians from this age will be ressurected into the millenium, and that they still have special benefits of being ethnically Jewish. It would appear from your article IFB that you believe both gentile and jewish Christians will reign during the millenium. So perhaps that is one difference.
     
  13. IfbReformer

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    Pete,

    Good observation!

    I will have to look into that - some year after me you and Gunther get done discussing Assurance ha ha.

    IFBReformer
     
  14. Barry2

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    Hello,

    After reading a bit more of Blaising-Brock I'm beginning to see what they are getting at. In their view the covenants don't expand in scope as in reformed-covenant theology. To PD the covenants are progressivly being fulfilled as each successive new covenant is inagurated. There is no postponement theory and no two peoples of God as in tradtional or revised Dispensationalism. There is only plan of God for the ages and not one plan for Isreal and one plan for the church running concurently or distinct from each other. Pretty interesting stuff actually. PD seems to answer alot of problems that both covenant theology and dispensationalism have. And both systems have serious glitches to my mind. What thinkest thou fellas?

    Barry2
     
  15. Pete Richert

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    I think both views have serious glitches too and have resolved myself to land somewhere in the PD, historic premill, or NCT camp. But after reading Ryrie's book, and talking and discussing CT with many Presbyterian brothers over on the Puritan Board, I see that both systems can be consistent as long as you understand passages in ways I have never thought of. This to say I no longer think people are utter fools for keeping to any of the systems and am SOOOOO glad my salvation rests on this understanding ZERO!
     
  16. Barry2

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    Pete,

    Sorry to disagree, but the Puritan Board? I go to a PCA Presbyterian church ( not by choice)and disagree with almost everything I hear. The only way and Amill or Post mill interpretation will work is to say something other than what the text says. These guys interpret text by their preconcoeived ideas of Calvinism and what they think the "Scripture teaches", not what the scripture says. I have dived headfirst into calvinism and Amillenialism and was almost takn in by this stuff. I have studied these implications till I'm blue in the face and have come up empty. Fancy Phlosophy and little substance. PD has the answers these guys have to twist and change text got make their "systems" work out.
    Barry
     
  17. mesly

    mesly
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    Barry2,

    Please check your private messages.

    Thanks,
    Michael
     
  18. Pete Richert

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    Barry2,

    I don't know Barry, I am a Calvinist, as well as Bock who wrote that book your reading. I wouldn't exactly called it made up. I call it simply reading the text for what it says.

    I don't wish to enter into a Calvinist debate on this thread, but I must ask, if you think Bock is totally out in left field for being a calvinist why would you trust any of his exergesis on progressive dispensationalism?
     
  19. Gunther

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    Or better, if you are not a calvinist, what makes your exegesis on anything valid?
     
  20. Barry2

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    Gunter,


    It's remarks like yours above that make me disdain Calvinism. Such arrogance does not make for a sober humble Christian. Check yourself brother and study to be quiet.

    Barry2
     

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