Promises of Abraham, Physical or Spiritual?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TipofTheTongueTheology, Dec 8, 2013.

  1. TipofTheTongueTheology

    TipofTheTongueTheology
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    I'm sorry, I'm not so quick sometimes, I've listened to about 26 mins of the video, maybe I missed it, but, what exactly is the simple question?

    Bear in mind not many here are going to listen to a > hr long video to find out the exact question.

    The promises made to Abraham as pertaining to the children of promise are all spiritual.

    The dispensationalists, of which there are many on this board, won't agree with that.
     
    #2 kyredneck, Dec 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2013
  3. TipofTheTongueTheology

    TipofTheTongueTheology
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Simple Question...

    The simple question was not to be found in the video, it was just the question that I initially posted. I hope you find time to watch it all, it sounds like you would agree with most of the study seeing that you understand the spiritual side to the promises.

    Respectfully, :thumbsup:
    Tip of the Tongue Theology
    http://tipofthetonguetheology.blogspot.com/
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,652
    Likes Received:
    225
    Both physical and spiritual, but the physical fulfillment was accomplished and is no more. True Seed, Christ and the children God has given Him, are the heirs according the Promise.
     
  5. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry, I don't have 62 minutes to watch a video. I'll comment based on my understanding and acceptance of what it says in Genesis several times -- not only to Abraham but to his offspring as well -- regarding the Land, Seed and Blessing.

    The Land

    Genesis 12, NASB
    1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; ...
    7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD who had appeared to him.​

    Genesis 11:31 indicates that Abraham's family was already headed toward Canaan. However, the phrase, "To the land which I will show you; . . ." would seem to indicate that Abraham acted on faith with no knowledge of his destination.

    Usually either too much or too little is put into the clause: " ... to the land which I will show you." Too little, if it be assumed that Abram did not even have an idea in what direction toward what land he should go. In 12:5 it is said, "and they set out for the land of Canaan." Besides, according to 11:31 the destination of Terah was Canaan from the first. On the other hand, too much is presupposed if it be assumed that Abram actually knew that Canaan was to be his ultimate destination. The compromise position in this case, then, would be that Abram well knew that he should first bend his steps toward Canaan. But the land that God intended to show him was yet to be revealed. In other words, only after Abram had actually arrived in Canaan did God also reveal to him that Canaan was the land where he was to take up his dwelling permanently.

    So Abraham headed toward Canaan, but did not know it was his destination. When Abraham arrived in Canaan and traveled to Shechem, God appeared to Abraham and confirmed the covenant. God told Abraham that, " ... to your descendants I will give this land." The generous character of the promise should be duly noted. Abram had merely been bidden to go to a land that God would show him. There was in that word no intimation that Abram's seed would inherit that land. So God is seen actually to give more than He promised. This is how God keeps His word, giving more often than not greater than what He promises. It is to be unequivocally understood, therefore, that the promise of a land is extended to Abraham and his descendants.

    The Seed
    Genesis 12
    2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; ...​

    God next promises Abraham, "And I will make you a great nation ... " The Hebrew for "a great nation" is legoy gadol. The term is significantly goy, not 'am "people." For the important distinction between the two, one must understand that goy requires a territorial base, since the concept is political in nature. So, following the promise of a land, God promises to make Abraham into a "great nation" that will dwell in that land. Thus, the territorial reference.

    A promise of descendants also follows logically from Gen. 12:7 where Abraham is told that his descendants will inherit the land of Canaan. This promise requires that many descendants come from Abraham and all this at a time when he had no son. There are three ways in which the phrase "seed of Abraham" is used in Scripture.

    First, there is the natural lineage, or natural seed. This is limited largely to the descendants of Jacob in the twelve tribes. The land of Israel in the Old Testament is given specifically to them. Second, there is the spiritual lineage within the natural, and Paul states emphatically what, or rather, who, that seed truly is.

    Galatians 3
    16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

    Third, there is the spiritual seed of Abraham who are not natural Israelites. Here is where the promise to "all the families of the earth" comes in. In other words, the children of Abraham (spiritually) who come from the "heathen" or the Gentiles fulfill that aspect of the Abrahamic covenant which dealt with Gentiles in the first place, not the promises pertaining to Israel, which remain to be fulfilled completely.

    Those "spiritual seeds" must "descend" from The Seed -- Christ. In other words, they must have faith in Christ to the extent that they receive the promise of Seed and Blessing just as did Abraham. The patriarch is also given a personal promise that relates to the seed promise, "I will . . . make your name great." The Hebrew word for "make . . . great" is 'egadlah which is a Piel imperfect of gadal -- "to make great." Since the Piel indicates intensive action, this could be translated, "I will thoroughly make [your name] great . . ." Indeed, today Abraham is recognized and honored as a "father" by Christians, Jews, and Muslims. God chose Abram and his descendants to bear His Gospel to the world. From the line of Abram, Christ was to come, to fulfill God's purposes, though those of Islam are disqualified because they claim their "inheritance" through Ishmail. Though he received an inheritance, and his own promise, neither are this inheritance or this promise.

    The blessing
    Genesis 12
    2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
    3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."​

    It is obvious from even a cursory examination of this passage that blessing is a major component of the Abrahamic covenant. Blessing dominates two thirds of this passage. Surely the allotted space indicates what is important to God.

    The promise of blessing in Genesis 12:2-3 is progressively expanded. First, God promises, "I will bless you. . . ." Then, Abraham is told that, "you shall be a blessing. . . ." God then promises to bless those blessing Abraham and curse those who curse him. Finally, Abraham is told that, "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." God moves from blessing Abraham to using him as a channel of blessing to the entire world.

    God's promise, "I will bless you . . ." is 'avarekeka which is the Piel imperfect of barak -- "to bless." Since the Piel indicates intensive action, this has the meaning of "I will thoroughly bless you." That Abraham was abundantly blessed, that he did, indeed -- despite, rather than because of, his own efforts -- become the father of a great nation, as well as many others, is indisputable. That leaves only the land -- though given by God, never thoroughly occupied by ancient Israel and not occupied fully to this day -- to pass to the remnant faithful of that nation, in order to fulfill that unrealized promise of God.
     
  6. prophet

    prophet
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    2
    Some received not the promise...Hebrews 11. Their inheritance depends on others' races. They look on in a great cloud, like the olympics, rooting for us.
     
  7. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    My question would be.

    Is not the promises God made to Abraham just a continuance of the promise of God?

    Paul speaks of Abraham as being heir of the world. Abraham died not having received the promises. And I believe the implication being he still hasn't received the promises.

    Can one inherit the world without first becoming/inheriting what is hoped for?
    Eternal life. What does physical and spiritual even mean? Does the word of God teach what we will be eternal life, outside of a body? Doesn't the word of God teach, death abolished and life and incorruptibility. Incorruptibility to what?

    But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 1 Cor 15:38

    What is the it, the seed? Is it not the person receiving eternal life in a body?

    Is this the house from heaven of 2 Cor 5? Bodily life?

    Just what is the temple of the Holy Spirit? Is it not the body? Exactly what must be born again? Is it not the flesh man as spiritual flesh man?

    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46

    Did not Jesus the Son of God come in the flesh, a living soul, in the figure of the first Adam and was resurrected the last Adam, quickening Spirit?

    What heir of God of whom we are joint heirs, has received/inherited the hope of, the promise of God? Who has become, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen?

    Is he currently physical or spiritual or both?
     
    #7 percho, Dec 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2013
  8. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    I'm not going to watch a 62 minute video posted here. Perhaps the OP can boil down the salient points for discussion.
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    The promise of Gen 12:3, as well as the blessing of Gen 15:6, was given to Abraham BEFORE circumcision [Ro 4:9,10].

    16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect.
    18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise.
    19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.
    29 And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise. Gen 3

    6.......For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
    7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9
     
    #9 kyredneck, Dec 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2013
  10. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Too bad you didn't highlight this in your post ...
    But then, that would have negated your denial that it is just a spiritual inheritance, but would have shown it is also a physical one, for faithful Israel. This is obvious, given ancient Israel never held all the land promised, and God will not negate a promise just because Israel was too lazy to do the work He intended them to do.
     
    #10 thisnumbersdisconnected, Dec 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2013
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    Too bad you're not able to put it all together, that's what the blinders of dispensationalism does, it destroys the wonderful underlying continuity of the scriptures and makes a convoluted mess of it.

    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

    I didn't highlight it, forgetting how ignorant dispies can be, I assumed it's common knowledge Isaac is a figure of the children of promise.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Dec 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2013
  12. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37

    I agree with you. If one is not a child of God through Jesus Christ neither will he be a child of Abraham.

    How do you think the number of the children of promise can be measured?
     
  13. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    I think the reason for giving, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called," is he same reason Isaac is called the only begotten of Abraham in Hebrews 11, in that it will be through Isaac the only begotten Son of God will come.
     
  14. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly, but the rest of the promises flow through him to Abraham's descendants as well.
     
  15. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    And I'm going to ignore this, given that, all in all, I still like you. :godisgood: :jesus:
     
  16. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Will it be the children of the flesh who number as the stars of the sky and the sand upon the seashore or is that the number of the seed of promise through Isaac?

    BTW there are about 7,000 grains of sand to a pound.
     
    #16 percho, Dec 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2013
  17. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    857
    Likes Received:
    0
    Upon what do you base your belief that God did not fulfill His land promises to the physical nation of Israel? My Bible says that ALL promises were fulfilled. Joshua very plainly gives the fulfillment of ALL land promises & the refuge city promise which was contingent upon a fulfilled land promise. Do you believe Joshua should be interpreted literally in these passages, or do you believe they are allegorical. Tell me why the text doesn't say what it says.


    Deuteronomy 19:7-9 -- God promised three cities of refuge & promised to add three more AFTER the land promise was fulfilled.
    Joshua 20:7-9 -- Lists the SIX cities of refuge, as God promised.

    "And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." Joshua 21:43-45

    "And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." Joshua 23:14-15

    "So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance." Joshua 24:28
     
  18. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please try to ask an original question. I've answered this one at least three times on this thread.
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    He's already been told all this, his response will always be the typical extra-biblical Zionist/Dispy charts/maps/propaganda intended to keep dispies in line in blind unconditional support of Likud.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2058651#post2058651
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    ....waiting....waiting....waiting....for the inevitable smear....
     

Share This Page

Loading...