Proof of Calvinism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by seekingthetruth, Nov 9, 2011.

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  1. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth
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    The Calvinists on here keep asking the non-cals to prove them wrong. But none of them have proven their side either. So, I will not post again on this thread. I am asking the Calvinists to state their case. Do your best to convert me to Calvinism.

    So, before anyone can even attempt to prove you wrong, you need to prove that you are right. So the thread is open, and I look forward to reading your explainations.

    But please, if your only intent is to ridicule me and call me ignorant, or state that I am in darkness, just please don't post at all. I would like some good reasoning without all of the usual animosity that at least one of you spew.

    John
     
  2. 12strings

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    ***THIS WILL BE A LONGER POST THAN i WOULD LIKE...IT IS THE EQUIVALENT OF 2.5 PAGES OF A SUNDAY SCHOOL LESSON i TAUGHT AT MY CHURCH. I HOPE IT IS HELPFUL***


    An Incomplete List of Bible References and Notes on the Topic of Predestination

    VERSES THAT SPEAK OF PREDESTINATION / ELECTION:
    -Ephesians 1:4-5, & 11 - Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. …11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
    -Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
    -Romans 9:9-16 - For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
    -Romans 8: 28-30 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    5 crucial doctrines:
    1. Foreknew – God looked down history before creation and knew (Personally) us.
    (Did God predestine those that he foreknew would believe? We don't believe this fits with the numerous other verses that seem to say otherwise.)
    2. Predestined – Chosen by God.
    3. Called – includes being drawn by the Holy spirit (John 6:44)
    4. Justified – Declared righteous, Jesus’ perfect record transferred to us.
    5. Glorified – When Jesus returns and we receive new bodies

    In These words we have a description of God’s Redemption Plan. Notice they are all in PAST TENSE! There is nothing tentative or speculative about these statements. Each is referred to as if it has already been accomplished.

    Eternity Past: Foreknowledge & Predestination
    Experienced in the Present: Calling and Justification
    Future: Glorification


    Example: Watching a recording of the Super Bowl.
    -When you watch a game live, if you are a real sports fan, you can get very stressed about the outcome…But If you already know that your team has won, you can watch the game much more relaxed.

    God is as certain of the future as we are of the past. God’s plan of redemption began in eternity past and extends to eternity future.

    GOD’S PROVIDENCE & HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY DO NOT CONTRADICT EACH OTHER:

    Negatively…
    -Acts 4:27-28 - for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
    Luke 22:22 - For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!”

    Positively…
    -Col. 1:28-29 - Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.
    -Eph. 2:8-10 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


    WHY WE NEEDED SOMEONE TO OVERCOME OUR “FREE WILL”::
    -Eph. 2:1-3 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
    -John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
    -Romans 3:10-11 - As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.

    Example of overcoming someone’s free will for their own good: Child running into the street (TRUE STORY).
    -The Father instructed her many times not to run into the street
    -She looked at him, gave him a little smile, and took off!
    -He ran after her, calling her, preaching repentance to her, pleading for her to turn around, but she didn’t, and there was a big delivery truck racing toward her.
    -She would run right between 2 parked cars so the driver would never see her.
    -right as she stepped out in front of the truck, her father grabbed the back of her jacket, and jerked her back so hard that they both fell on the ground.

    ***Was that father being unloving by not respecting his child’s free will?

    VERSES THAT SHOW THE COMFORT THESE TEACHINGS GIVE:

    -John 10:27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
    -Phil. 1:6 - And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
    -John 6:37 - All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
    -Romans 8:32 - Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.


    I Just want to Say…


    1. These verses are meant to give us Truth for Comfort, confidence, and Security.
    -If Salvation is God’s work, We can trust his heart.
    -In missions – God says in heaven there will be some from every tribe and tongue…If I go to the middle of the Amazon, I can know that not all, but some will eventually believe.
    -If Salvation were up to me, I would never Choose God apart from Him. (Rom. 3:11)

    2. Debates about this are not going away, but this is an in-house debate…SO…

    3. Do not demonize another Christian because they have a different view on this issue.
    -Both sides are attempting to be faithful to scripture.

    Straw man 1: Sovereignty means human choices don’t matter. –Very few believe this, and if they do, they are obviously ignoring lots of bible passages about believing, repenting, etc.

    Straw man 2: Human freewill denies the problem of being dead in our sins and unable to choose God. (John Wesley, who very much believed that God does NOT choose who will be saved, still believed in something called prevenient grace: God draws all people, and then some choose to respond to that drawing and some don’t; but without the drawing no one could choose God.)

    4. We are teaching these things because (a) We believe they are biblical, and (b) We believe they are important as part of BIG view of God that gives us confidence in God to obey even when it’s hard.

    ------------------------------

    I know someone will tear this post apart, but there it is...hope it helps.

    -Andy
     
    #2 12strings, Nov 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2011
  3. mandym

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    Actually they should prove their definition of terms. We both believe in clear doctrines like election. But while we both believe in these we define them differently. Which always leads to talking past each other.
     
  4. Tom Bryant

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    Andy,
    I'm not a Calvinist, but you did a good job presenting what and why you are.
     
  5. 12strings

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    Thanks for the kind word. I tend to think there needs to be a good does of sanity and temperance added to these discussions, rather than simply self-righteousness and pride that I have all the right answers and those other people must not believe the bible.

    (But of course, I am filled with pride and self-righteousness when I think that I alone have the balanced moderate responses, and everyone else on both sides is going to extremes...As they say, the definition of a Speed-demon is anyone driving faster than ME! ...and anyone going slower than me is a slow-poke!) :)
     
  6. CF1

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    Rather than expecting a thorough, systematic, complete discussion to take place on a Forum like this, I suggest investing in books and audio tapes of authors and preachers that present their thoughts with clarity, and then devote serious time to the study. I learned the most with a set of audio CDs during my commute, where I had time.

    You might rather ask the question of which authors speak with the most clarity on these subjects.

    I set out to do my own research and found some authors and preachers on audio CD who had solid logic, clear terms, clarity in definition of their terms, clarity in helping to understand the nuances of words and terms which are not easy to understand.

    And there are authors and speakers who muddle around in circular logic, reverse causality, and make a mess, rather than add clarity.

    A better question would be, which authors explain all the nuances, terms, and logic with the best clarity.

    People don't have time on the Forum to write a whole systematic coverage of all the nuances that sway them one way or the other.

    Unfortunately, you will find people, myself included, on Forums who desire praise of their knowledge and will quickly argue rudely that they are deserving of praise (which should only go to God). Some will idolize attention and praise of man on Forums and look for a fix of satisfaction every day from someone who will give them affirmation, that should be coming from God, not from man. Holding on to such idols is personal sin and we are all guilty of it, as it works its way out of our indwelling sin of the flesh.

    Forums like this allow for discussions about some of the nuances, but there simply isn't enough time to build a solid case in any direction. There is too much material to cover. Ask a different question about what resources have the most clarity in both views.
     
  7. Van

    Van
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    Hi 12 Strings, there is no support whatsoever in the Bible for the TULI of Calvinism.

    There is support for election, predestination, being called, justified and glorified. These biblical doctrines are misconstrued and misrepresented by Calvinism.

    Here is part of what you asserted:

    5 crucial doctrines:
    1. Foreknew – God looked down history before creation and knew (Personally) us.
    (Did God predestine those that he foreknew would believe? We don't believe this fits with the numerous other verses that seem to say otherwise.)
    2. Predestined – Chosen by God.
    3. Called – includes being drawn by the Holy spirit (John 6:44)
    4. Justified – Declared righteous, Jesus’ perfect record transferred to us.
    5. Glorified – When Jesus returns and we receive new bodies

    The words translated as foreknew, and foreknowledge, do not mean looking down history before creation, they mean to use knowledge obtained or formulated in the past in the present, i.e. to do something now based on something known beforehand. I have presented in the thread "foreknowledge" where and how these words are used and they are always used in the same way. Calvinism takes this truth and redefines the meaning of the word, pouring into the Greek one of the meanings of foreknowledge from English which is to know things from the future. Pure fiction and shoddy bible study.

    2. Predestined does not mean chosen by God, it means to determine beforehand. When God decides what will happen in the future, it is predestined because God brings about what He has decided to bring about, for no plan of God can be thwarted. So yet another rewrite of the meaning of a word to pour Calvinism into scripture where none actually exists.

    3. To be called is a tricky term, it sometimes is used to refer to hearing the call, but other times it refers to "the called" which are those whose faith in Christ God credited as righteousness. Next, Calvinism redefines "drawn" to mean compelled, rather than attracted by God's loviningkindness. This redefinition is an attempt to pour "irresistible grace" into scripture, but again the doctrine is fiction based on misrepresentation.

    4. Justification is provided by God accepting Christ's sin offering for all men, (He laid down His life as a ransom for all) but only those whose faith God credits and righteousness and are therefore placed spiritually in Christ receive the justification. When we are spiritually placed in Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ where the body of sin is removed and therefore we are redeemed, made right with God because the separation as a result of our sinful condition is removed and we are made alive together with Christ.

    5. And it is true we will be physically glorified when Christ returns but Romans 8 speaks of those in Christ being already glorified, applicable to every born again believer. This refers to us being transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of God, and therefore we are spiritually glorified when we are spiritually placed in Christ.

    So five for five, Calvinism misconstrues and misrepresents biblical truth.
     
    #7 Van, Nov 9, 2011
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  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I like what your saying brother:thumbs:
     
  9. preacher4truth

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    Uh, as Iconoclast would say "Fiddlesticks" :laugh:

    Nothing you've said supports your theory about "TULI" :rolleyes: (obviously you've failed to "persevere" long enough to hit the "P" on your keyboard) "not being supported by Scriptures." That and your horrendously written and worded paragraphs made me drop this faster than the National Enquirer.

    You cite absolutely nothing but your own subjective conclusions to arrive at fallacious, illogical theories. Congrats!!!! :laugh: :thumbsup:
     
    #9 preacher4truth, Nov 9, 2011
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  10. webdog

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    ...and rather than refute Van's points The Sidekick comes in typing a lot while saying absolutely nothing while focusing on grammar :laugh :
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Ahhh, come on...you gotta admit the "Fiddlesticks" jabs funny! :laugh:
     
  12. quantumfaith

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    Define "fiddlesticks". :)
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    Chill, he's in "bliss" my man, leave him there. :laugh:

    BTW, "fiddlesticks" is nonsense.
     
    #13 preacher4truth, Nov 9, 2011
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  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Rosin up that Bow! Where is my rosin cake?
     
  15. 12strings

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    a. Hi van, I admit that central section was not written very well, I found this in my old files and simply pasted it over...I knew this section was weak, and makes some assumptions that are not backed up; but I did not have time to go though and edit it....though I will expain a bit of it below.

    b. If you cut out that part that you addressed...do you have any problems with the rest of it?

    c. Since this is the thread to defend calvinism, I'll give it a go below, responding to the 5 points of Van:

    This is seriously the most confusing thing you write, and you have written it several times on different threads. I don't doubt that foreknowledge means what you have said (bolded); but I fail to see how that choice of definition changes the fact that God knew something "before", and acted on that knowledge. If anything, it seems that my definition would do more to refute calvinism than yours would.

    I also would maintain that while I have not exhausted the definition of foreknowledge, what I wrote is not incorrect, unless you are arguing that God does not know things in the future.

    I know chosen by God is not a definition of predestined, but it is a further explaination for the sake of teaching a class. If you agree that it means "determine beforehand" then God "determined beforehand" some people to be conformed to the image of his son (which is what happens to people who are saved). You clarifying the definition does not change what it is saying.

    If you read my post, you will see I said nothing more than that being called "INCLUDES being drawn by the Holy spirit." Do you disagree with this?

    Yep, you don't seem to be disagreeing with me here.

    I'm not sure if you are right about this or not, the context does not say, it simply said glorified, so I guess we are both just guessing.


    [/QUOTE]

    I think I only missed 4 our of 5, even according to you (You didn't really disagree with me on #4)
     
  16. SolaSaint

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    Does everyone feel this is a subject we can live with, can a Calvinist fellowship with an Arminian, if so we need to drop the name calling and heresy hunting and agree that God saves how He wants to save.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

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    You mean take the human element out of it & let God be God? A very wise Pastor once told me the following, " If man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior" .... I believe that to be the clear point of demarcation.
     
  18. Herald

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    Rick,

    I have numerous non-Calvinist friends. When we get together we have a great time. Once in a while they inquire as where I am in my life. When I mention I minister in a Reformed Baptist Church I get grilled. I respond graciously and it usually doesn't have any lasting ill effects. I'm sure they think I'm a bit nutty, but that's perfectly alright with me. We both think the other is in error, but I haven't witnessed the heresy label brought into our discussions.
     
  19. Van

    Van
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    unless you are arguing that God does not know things in the future.

    My position is God knows what will happen in the future, provided He has decided what will happen. Thus when God makes a prophecy, He knows that part of the future, because He has declared it, and He declares the end from the beginning. Jesus told folks that if the people of another town had seen His miracles, they would have repented. So God knows the hearts of people and knows how they would react to circumstances, should He cause those circumstances to arise. Jesus told Peter how Peter would die for the Lord. Now scripture does not describe that fulfillment, but it happened just as Jesus said, Peter stretched out his hands and went where he did not want to go. John 21.
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    Hi 12 Strings, let me try again at what I believe is your mistaken view of foreknowledge.
    In your view, God knew who would come to faith before He created them. So He knew something before it was knowable. In other words He must have decided what would happen in the future and therefore compelled some to come to faith. That is the only way the Bible describes God knowing what will happen in the future, God causes it to happen. He brings that part of the future into existence just as He foretold.

    Now compare that with my view. God chose an existent entity, the Word, to be His Lamb, 1 Peter 1:19-20. When He chose His Lamb, His Redeemer, He also chose us in Him, corporately as those who His Redeemer would redeem. This is very knowable, those whose faith He credits as righteouseness, He will place in Christ, redeeming them by the blood of the Lamb. No knowledge of our individual beliefs before we are created is necessary. It is all simple, so a child could actually understand it.

    Think of it this way, suppose God told you you would complete a project. You would know that part of the future, not based on seeing something in the future, but based on the power of God to bring about the future He declares.
     
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