Proof the OT peoples were not regenerate

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    The fact that OT saints were not born again proves that the Calvinist doctrine of Total depravity is an error. The following illustrates the error very clearly.

    Born again believers sacrificing animals?

    One ludicrous implication of Calvinism is that it necessitates believing that God would have regenerated, born again, believers sacrificing animals for their sins. Every born again believer, by definition, is a person washed in the blood of the Lamb. You simply cannot be born again unless you have died with Jesus and shared in his cross for the forgiveness of sins. Just as his death precedes his resurrection, we must die with him in order that we might be raised up with him into new life, new creations. So Calvinists, out of necessity to their doctrine, must say regenerate Old Testament believers were washed in Jesus' blood and then going off to the temple to sacrifice animals.

    The New Covenant

    The New Covenant in Jesus' blood for the remission of sins was NEW. The Jews did not live under the New Covenant but the Old. Remission of sins by his blood was a new thing. The New Covenant of Christ was afforded by his death and not until his death. Until Jesus died on the cross no one was a partaker of that covenant. He instituted that covenant the night before his death. It was a "new" covenant that replaced the old covenant of the Mosaic Law which had been fulfilled in Christ's death and resurrection.

    "And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25).

    "You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men; and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us. Our competence is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in letter but in the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:4-6).

    "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, "Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:6-13).


    Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel." (Hebrews 12:24).

    Calvinists like to pretend that regenerated Jews under the Law in the Old Testament were simply sacrificing animals because they were foreshadowing the death of Christ. Of course it is true these sacrifices foreshadowed the death of Jesus. But it is quite ridiculous to suppose God had regenerate people sacrificing animals for their sins. In order to be born again one must die with Christ and share in his cross and the new birth is an entry into his resurrection life. Thus the Calvinist can only have it one way. He cannot presume that Christ's sacrifice was not available to these Jews of the Old Testament otherwise he finds himself in even deeper trouble with his own doctrines. Therefore, he must insist that these regenerate Old Testament Jews were washed in the blood of Jesus sometime during their lifetimes and thus born again, regenerted. But how ridiculous! Jesus taught the atoning blood of his death was a New Covenant in his blood. And not only so, Calvinists make a mockery of the Lamb of God by insisting that God would have these Jews sacrificing animals for their sins when such sacrifices do not take away sins (Heb 9:9-10; 10:4), Jesus sacrifice does take away sins, and they had supposedly been washed in the blood of Jesus.

    The New and Living Way

    The Bible clearly teaches that the new birth was a new and living way not available to Old Testament believers. In the book of Hebrews, we are plainly told the sacrifices of the Law were implemented until the time of the new order (9:8-10) and when Christ entered the Holy of Holies in heaven he then secured eternal redemption (9:11-12) so the contemporary Jews could be freed from the dead works to serve the living God (9:14). Thus he is the mediator of a New Covenant because his death redeemed the Jews of the Old Covenant from their sins. (9:15). Matthew informed us Jesus came to save his people from their sins (1:21), and that he died as a ransom for many (20:28), the lost house of Israel (15:24). The Old Testament saints were redeemed from their sins when Christ died on the cross, not during their lifetimes. The writer of Hebrews then tells us, "For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Hence even the first covenant was not ratified without blood." (9:16-18). Jesus established his New Covenant on the eve of his death and it would not be in effect until his death took place. It is plain that this redemption occurred when Christ died on the cross and entered the Holy of Holies in heaven to now act as High Priest on their behalf, "For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24).

    "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected once for all those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."


    No longer any sacrifice for sins. Read it again. No longer any sacrifice for sin. But the Calvinist would have it that these Old Testament saints were washed in Jesus' blood and then offering further sacrifices for sins even though we are plainly told these sacrifices were only there until the new order of things and the covenant in Jesus blood would not be effective until his death and he entered the Holy of Holies in heaven on their behalf.

    And then these Hebrews are told that they may NOW enter the heavenly Holy place with confidence, through the blood of Jesus, and pass through the veil which is his flesh and because they now have a High Priest in the very presence of God. (10:19-20). Not only so, he tells them this is a new and living way having their hearts cleansed from an evil conscience. (10:22). He has already reminded them that animal sacrifices could not cleanse them in this manner. The new and living way is the new birth, being washed in Jesus blood by dying with him and being raised up with him in his bodily resurrection life making us members of his risen body.

    The entire book of Hebrews was written to remind Jewish believers why it was pointless to return to the ways of the Mosaic Law and its sacrifices of animals. To be born again and share in the Spirit is have been washed in the blood of Jesus and become a partaker of a new covenant of the Holy Spirit of life. The Law was a ministry of death and it culminated in the greatest sacrificial death of all. But the new covenant is a ministry of life, the resurrection life of Jesus into which one is born anew. Now that this new and living way was open to them, a return to the Mosaic Law was foolish. It makes absolutely no sense for born again believers to sacrifice animals for their sins since Jesus' sacrifice is the ultimate sacrifice. They had not come to Mount Sinai and its gloom and doom but to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the church of the firstborn made possible by the blood of Jesus when he died and rose again as High Priest in heaven, the mediator of a new covenant, the new and living way of the new birth.

    "How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29).
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Preaching currently through HEbrews (this week on 10:26-31), I can confidently say that this post has no merit. Christ chided Nicodemus for not knowing about regeneration. Regeneration was clearly talked about in the OT. There is no reason to dispute that.
     
  3. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Well Pastor Larry I see you are back to making unsupported assertions again. Perhaps you can attempt to explain WHY it has no merit and see how that pans out.

    Now the Bible says something very important.


    "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.... But WHEN Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected once for all those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."

    Do you agree with those final words in that verse PL?
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    I am not going to take the time to refute it all. I have better things to do. If you are truly interested, then I can recommend some stuff for you to study that will deal with it more fully than we can here.

    My assertion that regeneration was an OT truth is clearly supported in John 3.

    Of course I agree with the final words of that verse. It has nothing to do with regeneration however and proves nothing with respect ot OT regeneration.
     
  5. Ben Elohim

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    So then you agree that when a person is washed in the blood of Jesus, there is no longer any offering for sin correct?
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Of course, but that is irrelevant. BTW, it is more precisely said that There is no other sacrifice for sin. Jesus was the "once for all sacrifice" rather than the "yearly sacrifice."
     
  7. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    And you do not see that the main argument here in Hebrews 10 is to explain to these Hebrews, who are tempted to return to the Law, that it is ludicrous to return to animal sacrifice when one has been washed in the blood Jesus?
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    That is not really the main argument in Hebrews 10. The main argument in Hebrews 10 is not that it is "ludicrous" to return to the old way, but rather that is is damning to return to the old way. That is why v. 26 say there remains no more sacrifice for sin.
     
  9. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    The old way is sacrificing animals. Can't you say it?. Maybe it doesn't line up with the all atoneing sacrafice of Christ. Believing that the OT Prophets and those who lived by the Law was saved by Christ does have it's problems doesn't it?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    No kidding.

    Yes but why would I need to? Do I really need to state the glaringly obvious?

    No, there are no problems there. EVeryone who has ever been saved has been saved by Christ. He is the only way of salvation.
     
  11. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Damning for born again believers washed in Jesus blood to turn back to animal sacrifice? Is that correct PL?
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    The reason is you don't want to deal with Bornagain Christians returning to the old ways and sacraficing animals for there sins. If they were saved this would have been a very serious mistake. We cannot be saved from our sin and still be a slave to the Law. Once saved we are no longer under the Law. We are free from the rule of the Law.
    You must have been the school champion at dodge ball. :D
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Nope, incorrect.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    If you be here Sunday at 9:30 AM I will deal with it until you are sick of it. my text for Sunday morning is Hebrews 10:26-31. You will get more than you can handle, and if you want to talk afterwards, I will be glad to sit down with God's word as the authority.

    Nope, I am a bad dodger. I just don't do that. When people ask things, I answer them.
     
  15. Ben Elohim

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    Nope, incorrect. </font>[/QUOTE]YOU SAID: That is not really the main argument in Hebrews 10. The main argument in Hebrews 10 is not that it is "ludicrous" to return to the old way, but rather that is is damning to return to the old way. That is why v. 26 say there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

    What do you mean by, "it is damning to return to the old way" PL?

    What happens if people are washed in the blood of Jesus and turn back to animal sacrifices?
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    People who are washed in teh blood don't turn back to animal sacrifices. If they did, they would apostatize, but that is an impossibility because of the nature of salvation. The one who began the work finishes it. The reference is to some who have professed faith but then turn away. HEb 3 makes it clear that those people were not truly saved. They are damned because they came to a knowledge of the truth and then repudiated it, trampling on the Son of God, counting his blood as common, and insulting the Spirit of grace. Saved people do not do that.
     
  17. Ben Elohim

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    PL: People who are washed in teh blood don't turn back to animal sacrifices. If they did, they would apostatize, but that is an impossibility because of the nature of salvation. The one who began the work finishes it. The reference is to some who have professed faith but then turn away. HEb 3 makes it clear that those people were not truly saved. They are damned because they came to a knowledge of the truth and then repudiated it, trampling on the Son of God, counting his blood as common, and insulting the Spirit of grace. Saved people do not do that.

    BE: Well it seems then that no Old Testament saints were regenerate then or you would have regenerate people sacrificing animals for their sins.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    No, again, this is a very simple thing. People in teh OT did not have faith in Christ to turn back from. They were commanded by God to offer sacrifices until the time of the perfect sacrifice. They could not, by definition, turn back to them since they never turned away from them.
     
  19. Ben Elohim

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    PL: No, again, this is a very simple thing. People in teh OT did not have faith in Christ to turn back from. They were commanded by God to offer sacrifices until the time of the perfect sacrifice. They could not, by definition, turn back to them since they never turned away from them.

    BE: So they were born again but NOT washed in the blood of Jesus right?
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    That is correct. Their sins were covered (kaphar) until the time of the perfect sacrifice. The book of Hebrews makes that very clear.
     

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