Protestant Purgatory?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Linda64, Oct 4, 2006.

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  1. Linda64

    Linda64
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    To continue on the topic concerning "Kingdom Exclusion/Two Salvations"--here is an interesting topic which goes right along with that same theme. IMO, "Kingdom Exclusion" doctrine teaches about a "Protestant Purgatory". This doctrine divides up the Body of Christ and states that some "saved" people will be "cast out into outer darkness". The purpose of the Lake of Fire/outer darkness/hell, etc. is to PUNISH not to PURGE. There is no biblical evidence that Christians will be "cast out".

    The Protestant Purgatory


    Free Grace Theology is the theory that there is not necessarily any correlation between behavior and salvation status. Interpreting the Bible with this presumption in mind has led such theologians to a purgatorial concept along with a number of other misconceptions along the way. (A little leaven leavens the whole lump) Many Free Grace Theologians and other Christians believing such a theology object to attaching the word "purgatory" to their ideas because of its Catholic overtone, but in fact it is quite an accurate and appropriate term.

    Many verses I will point out indicate that those who don't behave properly will suffer wrath. However Free Grace theologians interpret such verses as merely speaking of chastisement or discipline rather than of wrath or condemnation.

    I want to acknowledge that there is not a consensus in the Free Grace community on some of the details however. On some verses they may disagree with one another as to whether the verse is referring to the "saved" or "unsaved". So also they may disagree as to the nature and degree of the punishment. For some may interpret verses like Mt 24:51 "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." as simply experiencing a feeling of shame, while others view it as getting thrown into hell fire for a thousand years.

    Another presumption of Free Grace theology is that death and resurrection doesn't actually do anything with respect sanctification. By "sanctification" I'm referring to the making a Christian sinlessly perfect. A state of which we all need to attain to enter the presence of God. The come to this conclusion in order to resolve the verses they apply to the saved which advocate an afterlife punishment with their theology that says that such punishments are for the purpose of sanctification and are not judicial in nature. For such afterlife punishments to be a matter of sanctification therefore they must assume that death and resurrection doesn't actually do anything with regards to one's sanctification.

    Do we achieve a state of eternally continuous sinless perfection by being tormented in some purgatorial sense, or do we achieve it simply by grace? It is difficult to conceive of such an eternal sinless state being attained by anything but by grace. If death and resurrection doesn't do anything, then we are the same kind of people in the next life as in this life. If tormenting a person brings sinless perfection, then let's set up torture chambers in the churches! (Not unlike the dark ages of Catholicism) And what if sinless perfection could be attained by such torment at one point. What is it that guarantees that such sinless perfection with continue for all eternity? If it was attained by some kind of purgatorial torment, what maintains it?

    Free Grace Theology is actually a misnomer. For while it acknowledges that justification is purely of grace, it denies the same of sanctification, which from their point of view many Christian achieve only through purgatorial torment. (Free Grace theology is actually a nice sounding term for what historically has been labeled Antinomianism.)

    http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/ppurg.html
     
  2. J. Jump

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    Linda in your mind that may be, but that doesn't make it so! There is many, many, many, many, many OT and NT passages that speak to this Truth.

    As for your copying and pasting this guy clearly doesn't understand, and is making judgment on a doctrine that he doesn't fully understand. And its the same thing that has been done of the BB in the past and I'm sure will be done on this thread in the near future.

    He claims as many others that death is the magical cure-all, but yet he just makes that claim with ZERO Biblical support. So like many others, we are just supposed to drop what we believe and believe what this guy says because he's a good guy or something? Sorry that's not going to happen.

    It has been asked many times and it has yet to be given, but if your belief that everyone is okay after they are saved and that all Christians will enter the kingdom and all Christians will rule and reign with Christ can you please show me in Scripture where there is evidence of that in both the OT and the NT.

    I'll await your response.

    Also throw in some Biblical evidence that death is a magical cure-all for people and that chastisement stops after this life is over.
     
  3. Inquiring Mind

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    Rev. 21:27 And nothing unclean may come into it, or anyone whose works are cursed or false; but only those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life.

    The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many christians do not want to believe in the concept of Purification. Purification exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no final state of Purification, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

    Matt. 5:48 - Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Be Perfect as God is perfect? We know that is not a reality in this world. So what that means is that we must strive toward perfection. But we all fall short. So how are we made perfect? We are only made perfect through a final purification process after death.

    Matt. 12:32 – And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death and that state is the final state of purfication.

    1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    EACH MAN HAS A FOUNDATION WHICH IS LAID BY JESUS CHRIST.

    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; OVER THE COURSE OF MAN'S LIFE HE ADDS GOOD WORKS OF GOD (gold, silver, precious stones) AND MAN ALSO ADDS SIN AND BAD WORKS OF SATAN(wood, hay, stubble).

    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. THIS TIME OF MANIFESTATION ON THE DAY DOES NOT OCCUR WHILE THE PERSON IS ALIVE. IT OCCURS AFTER DEATH. GOD'S PURIFYING LOVE FIRE WILL TEST WHAT IS BUILT ON THE FOUNDATION [/B](Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation of purfication, or damnation in hell).

    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. MAN WILL BE AWARDED IF HE HAS gold, silver, precious stones, FOR THESE WILL NOT BE CONSUMED.

    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. MAN WILL SUFFER LOSS IF HE HAS wood, hay, stubble TO BE BURNED AND IF HE HAS gold, silver, precious stones LEFTOVER HE WILL BE SAVED.
     
  4. webdog

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    We are "purified" the moment this body stops if we are true believers. There is no purgatory...protestant or catholic.

    BTW, I would consider myself a Free Grace theologian. I agree with more than I disagree with, especially pertaining to soteriology.
     
  5. J. Jump

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    Another death is the cure-all with no Scriptural backing. Can you please show me in Scripture where it states that death is the cure-all and that chastisement/discipline/punishment or whatever you want to call it stops in this life?
     
  6. Blammo

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    What about this?

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    (Yes, it's really a question.)
     
  7. Inquiring Mind

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    Yes that is true and the purification is what purgatory is.
     
    #7 Inquiring Mind, Oct 5, 2006
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  8. James_Newman

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    Free Grace Theology is the theory, nay the truth, that Jesus died to save us from sin while we were yet sinners and this salvation is not dependant upon our doing something for God. One should note from the start that while all believers in Millennial Exclusian are believers in free grace, not all believers in free grace are believers in ME. The difference between the Catholic view of 'grace' and the free grace teaching should be readily apparent to anyone who knows anything about the catholic church. The fact that ME may appear on the surface to be similar to purgatory does not have any bearing on truth, but it is an effective way of painting ME in a bad light in the eyes of the simple minded. But what is the alternative to Free Grace? Well, that is the 'Catholic' works salvation, which is apparently what we are to embrace in order to get out from under the horrible doctrine of reward according to works.
    So what, the author is willing to accept 'chastisement' but not 'wrath'? What in the world is the difference? A spanking is a spanking as far as my son is concerned. The difference is in how we respond to it.
    I don't know where the bible says that when you die and are resurrected you are automatically made sinlessly perfect and are now able to be in the presence of God. Regardless, any future punishment is not for the purpose of sanctification in the eternal sense. This was accomplished by Christ on the cross, but then there I go again talking about free grace. Sanctification in the present is dependent upon our works, and the warnings of future punishment and promises of reward are to aid us in our Christian walk and cause us to be sanctified now, not sanctify us in eternity.
    Oh wait-a-minit, I thought we were the ones who believed in free grace? Now you want to flip-flop on us and appear to be trusting in the finished work of Christ?
    This is where the problem lies. This man has totally misunderstood what we teach because he cannot concieve of a God that would grant eternal salvation to a miserable sinner. He thinks that the bible teaches that we must be sinlessly perfect to be eternally saved. He probably got this idea by confusing every teaching about the kingdom of God with 'what must I do to be saved'. He obviously realizes that his own life has fallen short of this level of perfection, so he has pegged his hope on some idea that when he dies and is resurrected he will be made perfect and there will be no future judgment for the sins that he is unable to overcome in this life. What kind of fruit does this teaching produce in the lives of those who believe it?
    Free Grace without the fear of God does indeed lend itself to antinomianism. But when you acknowledge the severity of God and that we will give account for every idle word that we speak, how can one claim that this encourages sin? Rather, I think the teaching that one may live a life of sin, and then be resurrected sinlessly perfect with no fear of judgment is more likely to cause a believer to sin against God and his own conscience. But if you disagree, show me why.
     
  9. Inquiring Mind

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    Time is and always been figurative with respect to the realm of God. This verse attests to this: 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    Time and space are unknown in the realm of God. A twinkling could also in the realm of God seem like an eternity. One can take it literally or one can take it figuratively or one can take it symbolicly.

    But furthermore it is a mystery and mysterys are not to be understood in full. We can try, but we will fall short.
     
    #9 Inquiring Mind, Oct 5, 2006
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  10. Blammo

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    I would think the verse is more in line with these:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Are you saying the events in these two verses may take thousands of years to complete?
     
  11. James_Newman

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    Blammo, my pastor wrote a book on the subject, and actually devoted a good portion of it to answering these arguments. I'll paste part of the response to your question about 1 corinthians.

    He actually is building upon ideas introduced elsewhere, but I didn't want to paste the whole book ;)
     
  12. James_Newman

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    I'm not sure, but I think Inquiring Mind's views are probably closer to the Catholic purgatory than our "Protestant Purgatory".
     
  13. Inquiring Mind

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    No, what I am saying is that we cannot know for sure what the exact amount of time is. It may pass away as one micro second here on earth, but it may take longer in the dimension of God or less. One has to keep in mind that a day is like a year and a year is like a day.
     
  14. Inquiring Mind

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    Does it matter what view I hold. Purification is Purification no matter what title you give it.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Time is not now - nor has it ever been figurative when it comes to God and His Word. When HE SAYS "3 days" he MEANS it. When He says "7 days" He means it. When He says 490 years in Dan 9 -- He MEANS IT!!

    This is such a hard concept - we are probably going to have to cover it several times.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    There is NO "Protestant Purgatory" for those who reject the man-made tradition of OSAS. 2Cor 5:10 is not talking about "protestant Purgatory" it is talking about heaven vs hell.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Blammo

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    I would tend to agree. And add; 2Pet 3:8 is telling us what time is to God, not to us. So when God's word says to us, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye", I believe it means what it says to us, not to God.
     
  18. Diggin in da Word

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    God help us! Because if Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, then not one person breathing will enter the kingdom according to the KE proponents.

    As long as we live in this earthly tabernacle, we have the propensity to sin. Every man, woman and child apparently will be cast out if that is the case.

    No thank you. I will continue to believe the Word of God and hold to the fact that when Christ appears, I will be accepted of Him because I accepted His payment for my sin. And, as pointed out by another poster, I will be like Him for I shall see Him as He is.

    In a moment, we who are His will be changed. Mortality will put on immortality and corruption will put on incorruption.

    At that point, those who have placed their trust in Christ Jesus and His sacrificial atonement for sin will no longer have the sin nature. Until that day that Christ returns, we will be subject to fall, we will sin. If any man say he has no sin, he is a liar. But, when we sin, we have an advocate with God, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

    If He pleads our case before the Father while we are on this earth now, how much more shall He love us when we meet Him face to face!

    I will not post the Scripture from the OT again that show we will not be cast away. That has been done before and the KE proponents do nothing but accuse of cherry-picking. Well, I used to live on a farm years ago and am reminded that when a farmer goes out to pick fruit for market or for a pie, he or she only picks the best.

    If I cherry-picked the verses that prove KE doctrine is hogwash, then I say those who truly are hungry for God's Word sit down and have some great cherry cobbler.
     
  19. Inquiring Mind

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    Where is this 490 years?

    I see seventy years and seventy weeks.
     
    #19 Inquiring Mind, Oct 5, 2006
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  20. James_Newman

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    We don't really believe that unfaithful believers go to be purified. Perhaps that may be one way to look at it, but it is certainly not for the completion of our salvation.
     
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