Protestantism and Islam?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by MikeS, Aug 14, 2003.

  1. MikeS

    MikeS
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    Found in The Great Heresies by Hilaire Belloc:

    He [Mohammed] refused to know anything of the Eucharist, with its Real Presence; he stopped the sacrifice of the Mass, and therefore the institution of a special priesthood. In other words, he, like so many lesser heresiarchs, founded his heresy on simplification.

    Catholic doctrine was true (he seemed to say), but it had become encumbered with false accretions; it had become complicated by needless man-made additions, including the idea that its founder was Divine, and the growth of a parasitical caste of priests who battened on a late, imagined, system of Sacraments which they alone could administer. All those corrupt accretions must be swept away.

    There is thus a very great deal in common between the enthusiasm with which Mohammed's teaching attacked the priesthood, the Mass and the Sacraments, and the enthusiasm with which Calvinism, the central motive force of the Reformation, did the same.


    I can't help but wonder why the Reformation was right but Mohammed was wrong?
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    MikeS,

    I know very little about Islam, but if your statements are founded in fact, and I know they must be, then Mohammed and the Reformers both recognized the blundering theological errors of the Roman Catholic Church. It is clearly true that this branch of the church is fettered with errant, extraneous, additions that only frustrate their clientelle. Christ promises eternal life to all who believe in Him; the Catholic Church wishes to perpetuate the concept of Purgatory and special holy days, for example, when these things are not intregal to the believer's peace of mind and heart.

    Mohammed apparently did not want to deal with the Eucharist, because he viewed our faith as being totally wrong, or because he might have thought of the Holy Communion as being a potent, spiritual reality and help to people.

    As to the Reformers they changed their theology only because they became enlightened by the copies of the manuscripts or what we know today as our Bible. They came out of the medieval, servitude to a flesh and blood man sitting in the Vatican. This 'blind leading the blind' is beginning to break down, as in the case of contraception, because of practical considerations and independent discision making and who knows what else.
     
  3. GraceSaves

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    Wow, you just sided with Mohammed.
     
  4. Lorelei

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    What kind of reasoning is this? No matter how false the doctrine, there are going to be times when we agree on one statement or another. Because they are right on one topic doesn't mean that everything they teach is right.

    Mohammed was wrong because he doesn't beleive in the God of the Bible. Islam's don't believe Jesus died on the cross among many other things.

    As someone already stated the protestant reformation took place once people got a hold of the word of God and saw how the practices of the Catholic Church were contrary to it.

    Mohammed says to kill the "infadels" and the Catholic Church killed the protestants for believing the Bible and denouncing their false teachings. I can't help but wonder why people believe Islamic terrorists are wrong and the Catholic church isn't?

    ~Lorelei
     
  5. MikeS

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    What kind of reasoning is this? </font>[/QUOTE]I think it's called a question.

    You took the words right out of my mouth! [​IMG]

    Most Protestants don't believe Christ is Really Present in the Eucharist, among many other things.

    As someone already stated, the practices of the Catholic Church are in no way or manner contrary to the Bible (a Catholic work, BTW)

    I can't help but wonder that anybody can hold such a simplistic, one-sided view of 500 years of history. They Bad, We Good, God on Our Side, Case Closed. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Johnv

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    That would be the teachings of Judaism as well, but we seem to not be so militant against them.
     
  7. Lorelei

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    The Bible is clear and the practices of the catholic church violates what it has to say. The Eucharist itself is a primary example of how catholics are in contradiction with the Word.

    ~Lorelei
     
  8. Lorelei

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    The "militancy" comes from the muslims, not us. The Muslims are and have been committing terrorists acts against us for quite some time. The Israelis have not. This is what causes us to be more vocal in our opposition to them.

    We disagree with all false religions but we tend to more vocal to those who try to do disturb our way of life or do physical harm to us. That is probably human nature more than anything else.

    ~Lorelei
     
  9. MikeS

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    The Bible is clear and the practices of the catholic church violates what it has to say. The Eucharist itself is a primary example of how catholics are in contradiction with the Word.
    </font>[/QUOTE]That roar you hear is the sound of 33,000 denominations all shouting "The Bible is clear!" :eek:

    ~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly -- one sacrifice, re-presented in a Sacramental way by the command of Christ so that each and every person who desires may join with it and receive "our daily bread."

    "This is my body....this is my blood" Yes, the Bible indeed is clear!
     
  10. InTheNameOfLove

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    Just a thought - I find it sad that many think of themselves as Catholics and Protestants first, instead of Christians.
     
  11. Lorelei

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    The Bible is clear, that is why you had to make this statement rather than just quoting it.

    The words "re-presented...sacramental way" are not in the Bible are they?

    ~Lorelei
     
  12. John Gilmore

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    Lorelei,

    Good point! We should not say more or less than scripture: "This is my body..."
     
  13. Lorelei

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    If you ever physically hunger and thirst, if you will someday physcially die, if you have physical life in your body right now, then we know that this is a symbolic passage, not a literal one.

    ~Lorelei
     
  14. Singer

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    Hey, that was a good post, Lorelei.

    MikeS had this to say:
    Most Protestants don't believe Christ is Really Present in the Eucharist,
    among many other things.


    Tell us, Mike.....if your eating of the body and drinking of the blood is literal,
    then why isn't the rest of the claim literal when it says you will "never thirst" ?

    John 6:35-59

    35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never
    go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty....

    Why don't you just take the body and blood ONCE and be finished.
    Why do you keep thirsting and hungering...?
     
  15. john6:63

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    Further more if a Jewish settler blew himself up in a Palestine shopping area PM Ariel Sharon would be on TV condemning the attack. Do we see the Palestinians condemning? No. We see them on TV with Guns and explosives professing their love for allah and their Vehement hatred towards Jews and the US as a farewell speech before they blow themselves and a few innocent Jews up.

    Now you will respond that the Jews do not believe in the same God as we Christians. But I would caution you, because we Christians do in fact worship the same God. The Jewish Bible is the same collection of books that make up the Christian Old Testament, so using your assessment we Christians worship a different god than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of the Old Testament and God the Father that Jesus Christ prayed to in the New Testament.

    The Jews hold that Jesus was a great Rabbi that the Gentile nations merely mistook for being the Messiah. Some Jews even believe that Jesus is the Gentile Messiah, but not the Jewish Messiah. Islam even teaches that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, but Islam takes this claim one step further. Just as Muslims believe in Jesus, James 2:19 tells us that demons do also. The whole point of the Qur’an is to diminish Jesus, to acknowledge His existence, but to deny His role, purpose and sacrifice. Since the Jews hold only to the OT as authoritative, they are still waiting for the promised Messiah. In Gods time the truth will be revealed to the Jews.

    The Jews are still in need of a savior and they still need to be witnessed to. There are lots of Jews who have found Christ as savior and Muslims as well, and they (Muslims) will be the first to tell you that the god of Islam is a false god.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

    The Jews believe that Abraham was a real person - oohhhhh noooo - the Catholics believe that too - they are siding with the Jews!!

    (The orthodox Jews have adopted evolution and teach evolution - oooohhh noooo! The Catholics are doing that as well in both their science AND their religion classes. They are siding with the Jews??)

    The Buddhists pray to their dead using candles and incense - declaring that the dead are not really dead but alive and that the dead can hear and help them - ohhh nooo the Catholics do that too! Are they "siding with the Buddhists?".

    Prayer wheels - prayer beads candles incense - yep - its all there.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Johnv

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    Most Muslims are not militants. I live in the same condo complex with Muslims, Christians, and Jews. The most militant phrase utterred by the Muslims to the Christians and Jews is "did you see the Angels game last night?"


    If you're referring to the state of Israel, they have not been free of terrorist acts, but I'd agree that they don't make a habit of it. BTW, many people have heard of the Jewish Defense League here in the US. The JDL has attempted to commit several acts of terrorism against American Islamic targets.


    Be vocal about the extremists, no matter what the religion. Be vocal about the JDL, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the KKK, WAR, and others. But do not condemn the many because of the actions of the few. If we did that, we'd have to start with ourselves, in the spitir of the speck vs plank.


    Noting wrong with disagreeing with faiths that don't accept Christ. But we as Christians must remember that an act such as 9-11 was an attack on the way of life of American Muslims, American Jews, American Christians, and Americans of other faiths. Members of all these faiths were killed that day, without regard to their religious affiliation. As for it being human nature, that's understandable, but even sin is human nature, so, while it's understandable, it's not condonable.
     
  18. Johnv

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    Well, my grandmother, who grew up a Muslim and became a Christian in her later years, would disagree with you. Looking at Paul's example when addressing worship of the Athenian Unknown God, Paul would disagree as well.
     
  19. MikeS

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    Why do you keep hungering and thirsting when you eat natural food? Because eating and drinking are an ongoing part of life, not a one-time event.

    We Catholics believe that "coming to" Christ and "believing in" Christ is also an ongoing action, a relationship with our Savior. When we renew that relationship through the Eucharist we do indeed stop hungering and thirsting. Anybody who renews their relationship regularly through the Eucharist will never hunger or thirst. Just as Christ promised.
     
  20. Lorelei

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    That is what catholics believe that is NOT "just as Christ promised." Christ said "never" hunger.

    ~Lorelei
     

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