Prove it.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Amy.G, Mar 31, 2009.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G
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    I would like to challenge all those who believe that a born again, child of God can lose the gift of salvation that God has sealed with the Holy Spirit, to prove their position, using scripture of course.


    Instead of just arguing with those of us who believe in eternal security, prove that we are wrong.
     
  2. Martin Luther

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    There are so many, I'm not sure where to begin.


    Romans 1:17-32 (King James Version)

    17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.





    How about these, these WERE Christians that God gave up.



    Revelation 3:16

    So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


    Revelation 2:5

    Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
     
  3. DHK

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    I do a lot of evangelism. The "truth of God," is presented often, and often rejected.

    These people were never Christians in the first place. The whole passage describes the condition of the unsaved Gentiles. Chapter two describes the condition of the unsaved Jew. Chapter three describes the condition of the unsaved Jew and Gentile alike--that is of all the world.
     
  4. Martin Luther

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    It seems very clear to me.
     
  5. annsni

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    I totally agree with you here. How many do we know who say "Oh, I'm a Christian. I just don't believe in all that church stuff or the Bible but I'm a Christian" or whatever. They hear, they know - but there is no Spirit in them at all. They might know, but they will hear "I never knew you". God won't say "I knew you but you left but I NEVER KNEW YOU."
     
  6. thegospelgeek

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    I can give you scripture to support my beleifs that one can forfiet their faith. You will turn around and say I am misunderstanding them or taking them out of context. You will then give me scripture to support your view of eternal security. I will then say you are misunderstanding them and/or taking them out of context. I will give you a verse or two. You will say 'Oh yea, what about....", and I will say 'Oh yea, what about..." neither of us will change our beliefs because we have already settled it in our minds. We have prayed over it and studied as best we could to reach our conclussions. The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree, the worst would be to get into a name calling contest and belittle each other and accuse the other of being a heratic, unsaved, misled, and flase teacher. We would then ruin both our witnesses to others here on forum and possibly be banned.

    So rather than go through all that, let's just shorten the process and agree to disagree. How about we meet in heaven and ask Christ to explain it to us. If your right, I'll let you make fun of me when we walk down the golden streets on our way to get fruit from the Tree of Life.

    Love Ya,
    keith
     
  7. Amy.G

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    Aaaallrrighty then! :laugh: You are dismissed from this discussion. :tongue3:

    I would not call you a heretic though or other derogatory names, but I see your point. My point is that in my belief, it cannot be proved from scripture that one can lose or forfeit the gift of salvation. One can forfeit or reject the truth of the gospel, but they are not saved at that point, so have not "lost" it. I believe the parable of the sower is the best explanation of this.
     
  8. Agnus_Dei

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    If anything Amy, “The Parable of the Sower” is one of the best examples used to actually refute the OSAS doctrine. For time sake I will omit posting much the Scripture text, but please refer to Matthew 13: 3-23.

    At the end of verse 9, the Disciples question Jesus in regard to this parable and starting in verse 18-23, Jesus elaborates.

    Please note in particular verses 20-21: The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

    Now Amy, I have to ask; how do you relate your OSAS beliefs to Matthew 13:20-21? If a man cannot lose his salvation, then why would Jesus say: When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away”?

    Here is a prime example of a person who received the Word of God with joy and is saved, but once trouble or persecution comes he falls away.

    In XC
    -
     
  9. sag38

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    The first two soils (heart conditions) were never Christians to begin with. The third soil, you can't be for sure. But, to not be sure is to play with fire. Only the fourth soil was saved, is saved, and will always be saved. And, the evidence is fruit. Where there is no fruit, period, there is no salvation, nor has there ever been.
     
    #9 sag38, Mar 31, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2009
  10. Zenas

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    OK, let's look at James 5:19-20:
    I know some will say "save his soul from death" means the same thing as "save his life from death" but the only translations I have found that say it this way are those published by organizations that actively hold to an OSAS point of view. I suppose you will look at that way because if you don't you must conclude that these verses disprove OSAS.
     
  11. Agnus_Dei

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    ...but Christ plainly says that ...he lasts a short time... For one, we don't know the time period, he could've lasted a week or a year or longer until he experienced trouble and persecution.

    So what was he when he was enduring for that short time...not saved? If that's the case what's the time limit that one must endure to be quailifed as saved, per the OSAS doctrine.

    I believe St. Paul said it best that we must endure until the end, to finish the race and to workout our own salvation with both fear and trembling.

    In XC
    -
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: There are two distinct possibilities here. You could be asking to prove that one has lost their salvation. We are not God and none of us have stood before Him in judgment to know absolutely our final standing yet to be decided in finality. Now we know by faith, not absolute knowledge. Neither have we seen the book of life nor know those that indeed may be blotted out.

    It is not up to anyone to prove that one can lose their salvation. It is only up to us to set forth the clear and biblical 'possibility' and warnings, which many have done on many threads, that the possibility exists one can make shipwreck of the faith once had and in the end be lost eternally. That ‘possibility’ is indeed clearly set forth in numerous passages. One can either accept or reject it, but to reject that truth is to run the risk of presuming upon the grace of God.

    Who shall see God? One that simply has at one time exercised faith? “Ps 24:3 ¶ Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
    4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
    5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.”
    Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: So can we conclude from your statements here that if the truth of God is rejected they were never Christians in the first place?
     
  14. annsni

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    We know in Scripture Who the root is. This soil never had the root.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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  16. Amy.G

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  17. Steven2006

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    I come down on the side that we can not lose our salvation. I will admit that this is an issue that I have at times struggled with. The verse that fist comes to mind when I think of this is Colossians 1:23. And I know that "If" is supposed to mean "since", but I have never been 100% satisfied as why is doesn't say just say "since".

    Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
     
  18. OldRegular

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    Well ML you started at the wrong place. In the passage from Romans the Apostle Paul is talking about the general state of fallen mankind, not Christians. Please note verse 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Paul is not referring to the Special Revelation of God here but the revelation of God in nature.
     
  19. Martin Luther

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    There is no difference. From Adam until the return of Christ men are the redeemed and lost the same way. Paul was speaking here of those who began to follow and then turned back, these were past examples as well as future examples.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Amy
    They can't prove what is false. Scripture teaches very clearly, for those who believe that Salvation is by Grace alone and not of works, that God keeps Eternally Secure those whom He has saved through Jesus Christ. These people like to quibble about the interpretation of certain passages. Let them quibble with the words of Jesus Christ.

    John 6:35-40, KJV
    35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day


    John 10:27-30, KJV
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
    30. I and [my] Father are one.
     

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