Prove it.

Funny how many of these people seem to be trying to assure themselves with this debate. Even Mormons are 100% sure of their salvation, but that assurity does not give you real assurance. Only the obedient will see God, only those who overcome as Christ overcame will live with Him.

 

I was in the same boat as they were some years ago. I was raised fundamental Baptist, KJVO, OSAS, the whole bit and as I got older and began to think a little for myself, I found it increasing harder to assure myself of this OSAS theology, when Holy Scripture was screaming the obvious at me.

In XC
-

 

Sometimes I think we are simply arguing true points but from differing points of view. It is true that those continuing in the faith can have assurance but those who draw back may or may not be safe. Just like Jezebel, God gave her space to repent and she did not take heed. If we fall, God will give us time to reform. We must keep ourselves unspotted to be sanctified. As Christ said the just man keeps getting back up, all of us will stumble, but only those who continue in the faith will receive grace at the judgment.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (King James Version)



1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.



Revelation 22:14 (King James Version)

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

I was raised the same way. I get excited to see others who can SEE.

 

Ah,
But you can not prove OSAS either. Those who beleive like I do can explain away all the verses you have posted without much difficulty, just as you can explain awat anything I would post to "prove" my position.

There are multiple positions on both sides of the arument. As you can see from the post we have seen so far, there are those who say on who was saved can not fall away, there are those who say that you can fall away and return, those who say it does not matter if you fall away. The people who argue against OSAS say that you lose it through sin, you lose it by not repenting, and you lose it by rejecting your faith.

If it was "clearly" taught, as everyone claims, there would not be any debate. We would all agree.

I feel that as long as one is not on the extreme end it really doesn't matter. If I am not teaching that works save you and you are not teaching that one can live in complete disobediance to Christ, we are pretty close to the same, just using different understanding and different terms.

I'm gona bail out and watch for a while, I may post if something interesting shows up or if someone post something I've never heard before.


have you noticed that neither side answers the other? It reminds me of when my wife and I disagree, we have two seperate arguments, I say one thing, she another. Neither is relavent to what the other says.

 

I would hope that a grown woman can grasp the difference between obedience an disobedience. Even my children know when they are being disobedient.

 

YOU personally can have eternal security if you are obedient, he was not criticizing YOUR faith but the doctrine of those who claim one profession of faith will secure them for the rest of their lives.

 

Here's a few more verses for discussion:

"I am the true vine and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes so it bears more fruit." John 15:1-2

"Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." John 15:4-5

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:6

It first should be pointed out that Christ is addressing this statement to His disciples. Second, in verse 2, Christ states that any branch in Him that doesn't bear fruit is "taken away". One cannot be "taken away" from Him if he wasn't "in Him" to begin with. Christ then makes it clear that the disciples (which of course would include all subsequent believers by extension) would have to abide in Him in order to bear fruit. However, if a branch does not continue to abide in Him, he is "cast out as a branch", withers, and is thrown into the fire." So it's pretty clear that a branch can actually be in Christ at some point and then subsequently fail to abide in Him and bear fruit, and thus be cast out from the Vine.

Next is a passage from Paul's epistle to the Romans in which he is at this point specifically addressing Gentile believers:

"You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they [unbelieving Jews] were broken off and you [believing Gentiles] stand [present tense] by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." Romans 11:19-22

Paul warned the believing Gentiles who were currently "stand(ing) by faith" that they would also be "cut off"--like the unbelieving Jews--if they did not continue in God's goodness.

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbeliefin departing from the living God; but exhort one another while it is called 'Today', lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3:12-13.

First, notice that this passage is addressed to believers. The author (?Paul) not only calls the readers "brethren" in verse 12, but also "holy brethren" in verse 1, further writing that they are "partakers of the heavenly calling.." (3:1). It's these "holy brethren" that the author warns against having an "evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God". It's therefore nonsensical to suggest that if anyone of these "holy brethren" at some point does "depart from the living God" he was never "saved" to begin with.

Second, in that passage the writer also makes the point that to be ultimately considered a "partaker of Christ" and part of "Christ's house" one has to hold his confidence from the beginning steadfast to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14).

Now regarding the parable of the sower, I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone quoting Luke's version which has this relevant verse:

"But the ones on the rock, are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:13

So these received the word with joy initially, and believed for a while before falling away. The passage doesn't indicate anything about this being a "false believing"--on the contary, there was initially evidence of life from the implanted seed (v.6). (Of course this can be a discussion starter itself, whether or not an individual believer has any responsibilty for the condition of his "soil"--I think the bulk of Scripture indicates that he does.)

 

Quick explaination is that the seal can be broken. It is not easily broken, but it can happen. If you want to make a better argument for OSAS, it would be when Jesus prays in John, I think around chapter 16 or 17, when he talks about how he will not lose any that the father has given him. It is the verse that gives me the most doubt as to which side is correct.I know you will probably not agree with me and that's OK.

If you really want me to, I can give you my side for all of the verses you have posted. But how about you do one for me? What about Hebrews 6? Not arguing, but I think I can at least get you to understand why I beleive what i believe.

 

Good post brother.

 

Thanks. I too was raised believing in OSAS, but found it less and less sustainable from the Scriptures the more and more I read.

 

Those who do not believe in the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer, commonly referred to as OSAS, seem to indicate a lack of faith. I normally don't like to refer to church fathers, but this time I would like you to take a look down the road of history, beginning at the first martyr--Stephen. Did Stephen have a lack of assurance in his faith? Was he wavering at the end if he still had to work out his salvation as they cast stones at him? Not at all! He looked up into heaven and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God ready there to welcome him home, and at the same time, as they cast those last few rocks at him, in his dying breath, found it in his heart to forgive them that killed him. There was no doubt in his heart that he was going to heaven. I believe that Stephen lived his life believing eternal security, so that whenever the Jews turned on him, or whenever anythng befell him he was always ready to die. He believed in eternal security. He was ready to die, not just then--but always. All the saints were.

Read Foxes Book of Martyrs. You will see the same testimony over and over again. These men and women were ready to die at any moment at any time. They believed in eternal security. There never was a moment in their lives where they would have to go back and confess some sin, worry about not going to heaven. They lived as if they would die at any moment by some unforeseen enemy of the truth.

Missionaries of past days were of like mind. The authorities of Burma tried to kill Adoniram Judson at every turn. They let him languish in horrible conditions in jail. Judson thought he would die. The Lord sustained him. But he was ready to die--always. Such a belief can only be held if one holds to the eternal security of the believer.

Concerning the church fathers, look at Polycarp. How did he die? He also died by the sword. He was ready. He was not afraid of death. Bring it on, was his attitude. No one can have that kind of attitude without believing in eternal security.
Those who don't believe in eternal security would be more afraid of death. They would be unsure of any unconfessed sin. They would be unsure if they had worked out their salvation to the full. They woulld be unsure if they had fully obeyed the Lord in order to be accepted by him.

History is replete with martyrs of our faith, that were confident of heaven, confident that if they would die at any time they would go straight to heaven. That is the belief of eternal security. That is the belief that we see from the Apostles till now.