Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. StefanM

    StefanM
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    Hello all. I'm asking for pre-trib rapture proponents to prove their doctrine as best they know how. I don't intend to debate them; if I ask any questions, they're from sincere inquiry.

    I used to believe in replacement theology with a tendency toward amillennialism, but now I'm firmly premillennial with progressive dispensationalist sympathies. I've generally adhered to a post-tribulation rapture since becoming premillennial, but I'm really interested in hearing from the other side.

    I do have an open mind in this matter, so I'll gladly accept a pre-tribulation rapture if the doctrine is biblical.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Johnv

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    The issue of rapture/trib scriptural interpretation is not a matter of doctrine. When someone asserts their view as doctrinal, they're tristing scripture.

    The only apsect of the second coming that is doctrinal is that Christ will come again. Everything else is an issue of interpretation, and nothing more. This is why I stick to talking about the first coming.
     
  3. StefanM

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    Semantics aside, the request to prove the pre-trib position still stands.
     
  4. John Ellwood Taylor

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    A real quick reply, by no means exhaustive:
    1- From a dispensational point of view the tribulation is for Israel not the church -Jer 30:7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

    2- The faithful church is promised to be removed from trouble that will face 'those upon the earth' (note- this phrase is never used of believers)- 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come * upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    3- I believe God want us to have our eyes on Him not on signs, hence -2:13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    4- Depending on your interpretation of Revelation, if you believe in a non-preterist view then you would note the absence of the church in chapters 4-18.

    Again, not exhaustive but a starting point.

    Here's a good message to help understand the pr-trib view:
    http://www.gracechurch.org/shepnew/2005notes/MayhueReadyorNot.pdf
     
  5. webdog

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    Regarding the antichrist 1 Thessalonians 2:6-8 " And now you know what (power of the HS) is restraining, that he (antichrist) may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He (Holy Spirit) who now restrains will do so until He (Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way. And THEN the lawless one (antichrist) will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

    In order for the Holy Spirit to be "taken out of the way" would be to take all believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He would never leave us nor forsake us. Then the great tribulation will happen. You imagine if you took out all believers, our prayers, and the Holy Spirit from this world, how ugly and evil it would be? It will happen. If we had any reason to believe we will see the tribulation, we would not have the hope Paul talks about, but rather sadness that we will go through it. If we are not looking forward to Christ's return, we will be looking forward to the antichrist's revealing so we can "get it over with". I don't see the Church going through the tribulation.
     
  6. webdog

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    Another thing: Jesus only used two references regarding the tribulation and the "end times"
    The Flood, and Sodom and Goamorah. We can look to both of those to see the righteous were taken away prior to the judgement, even Lot in his backslidden state.
     
  7. JGrubbs

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    That being said, only one view can be the right view, if the pre-trib view is right, then we as Christians have nothing to be concerened with and will be raptured before the Antichrist and the Tribulation, if the other views are right then we will be here during the persecution of the Church by the Antichrist and will be here during all or part of the tribulation.

    I believe that we should be prepared for that later just so we are not caught off guard!
     
  8. Johnv

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    JGrubbs, neith view is "right". They're both equally speculative. Even Jesus said he did not know the day or hour of his coming. How can we even begin to speculate what Jesus himself did not know?

    Sure, we can discuss it, but we have no scriptural authority to say one specific way is right. All previous attempts to do so regarding future prophecy have proven themselves wrong.
     
  9. JGrubbs

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    What I mean by saying "only one view can be the right view", is that simply Jesus will either come before, during or after the Tribulation, but not all three. Do you not agree?
     
  10. Johnv

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    We don't even know for sure what the tribulation is, so we can't possibly know when Jesus will come in relation to the tribulation.

    Sure, we think we have an idea of what it might be, but that's about as sure as we can get.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    I do not
    agree. "Second Coming" does not preclude
    multiple comings. "First Coming" to earth was
    NOT as many expected by many who
    studied the Old Testament (OT)prophecies.

    The first coming was multiple:

    1. Jesus came to earth as a little Baby
    at Bethelhem.

    2. Jesus returned to earth after going
    to hell and to heaven (between his death
    on the cross and His resuurection).

    Again, let the Bible be your guild.

    What is the difference between 'hope' and
    'faith'? Why are both mentioned along with
    'love' here?

    1Co 13:13 (Geneve Bible of 1585):
    And nowe abideth faith, hope and loue,
    euen these three: but the chiefest
    of these is loue.


    Heb 11:1 (Geneva Bible of 1585):
    Now faith is the grounds of things, which are
    hoped for, and the euidence of things
    which are not seene.


    Faith then is of things partially seen;
    hope is of things which are not seen.

    I hope there is a pretribulation rapture
    and I hope that I am in it. I have faith
    that Jesus is going to come get me and
    take my soul to heaven
    in either a rapture or in death. So i'll
    be partaking in either a resurrection of the
    just (AKA: first resurrection) or the
    rapture which immediately follows.
    I hope there is a pretribulation rapture
    and I hope that I am in it.

    Of course, i have three proofs from scriputre
    of the pretribulation rapture -- all three of them
    the Lord gave me AFTER i believed in the
    pretrilbulation rapture/resurreciton. Most
    pretrib preacher/teachers do NOT use these
    three scriptures as proof of the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection.
     
  12. JGrubbs

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    I don't believe the Charismatic doctrine that Jesus died and went to hell, that is no where in the Scriptures!
     
  13. Petrel

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    Hardly Charismatic. It's stated in the Apostle's Creed and was supported by John Calvin. I tend to think that he did descend into hell, because if he had not how could the punishment for our sins be fully paid?

    But that's off topic. In regards to the topic, I'll say I'm a pre-trib dispensationalist (although since coming here I've found that there are way more varieties of dispensationalists than I knew about, and some I don't think are correct) and I think webdog made some good points.
     
  14. UZThD

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    might want to look at House, Outlines of Theology. Wayne provides about 10 arguments for each of the four positions on the trib, then gives counters to each of the 40, or so, arguments..

    UZ
     
  15. TexasSky

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    JGrubbs,

    What is your interpretation of these verses?

    Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
     
  16. JGrubbs

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    The place where Jesus went after death in Hebrew is called “Sheol;” in Greek it is “Hades.” Both of those terms are used for the place where dead souls were said to go. Therefore, when we say, “He descended into hell,” we are simply recalling that Jesus came under the power of death, and went to the place of the dead until His resurrection. He told the theif on the cross, "today you will be with me in Paradise", which is also were the dead went.

    He didn't, as many Charismatics teach, go to hell to battle Satan and death, the Apostles' Creed was simply translated at a time when the word "hell" had a broader meaning in English than it does now, but it doesn't say anything different than the Bible. Jesus went to the place of the dead when he died. Hell is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place.

    The passages in which the word occurs (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31) make it clear that Hades was formerly in two divisions, the abodes respectively of the saved and the lost. The former was called “Paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The lost were separated from the saved by a "great gulf fixed" (Luke 16:26). The Paradise side of Hades has been emptied. When Jesus ascended to Heaven, he took the occupants of Paradise (believers) with Him. The lost side of Hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future.

    Link for more info

    I was taught to believe in the pre-trib rapture over the last 29 years, but I am now leaning towards a pre-wrath rapture of the Church.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The time line according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection event
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The time line according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
    So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
    in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
    as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
     
  18. JGrubbs

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    Pre-Wrath rapture timing is favored by the timeline of Matthew 24 (Olivet Discourse) and Revelation 6-7

    If you compare the flow of Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 and 7 the timing of the rapture is easily identified. In a pre, mid or post-tribulation rapture the timing is not consistent.

    Matthew 24:29-31 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Notice first the tribulation, then the signs in heaven of the 6th seal and after these signs the gathering of his elect also known as the rapture. No other rapture timing has such a clear and obvious location in scripture.

    Revelation 6:12-14 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Notice the equivalence of the signs in Matthew 24 and of the 6th seal.

    </font>
    • sun be darkened = sun became black as sackcloth of hair</font>
    • moon shall not give her light = moon became as blood</font>
    • stars shall fall from heaven = stars of heaven fell unto the earth</font>
    • powers of the heavens shall be shaken = great earthquake</font>
    Source: Pre-Wrath Bible Prophecy

    Here are two links for more information:
    http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes.html
    http://www.revelationcommentary.org/
     
  19. Johnv

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    You're right. Jesus died and went to Sheol, called "Hades" in the Greek NT. Sheol was also known as paradise to the OT Jews.
     
  20. DeafPosttrib

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    Myself was pretribber before. I thought it is the truly and right doctrine because of what many baptists believe. Till I learned from my friends showed me of 2 Thess. 2:1-3. When I read this psssage. It hits me so hard. I understand it so very clear. Verse 3 tells us, do not let any person deceive you of any meanings like teaching on the timing of Christ's coming is already arrived or anytime. Apostle Paul says, day of Christ shall not come till we must first see come a falling away first, that is apostasy. Then, we shall see the Antichrist to be revealed. So, therefore, 2 Thess. 2:3 cannot be pretrib passage.

    Also, my friends showed me of Matt. 24:29-31. I read it, and I understand it so very clear. Jesus tells us it shall be occurs immediately AFTER the tribulations of the days, then cosmic disturbance will be shaken up in the sky. Then, the power and glory shall be revealed in the clouds. Christ shall be descend down with his angels, and the sound of the trumpet shall be sound, and then shall gathering his elect together.

    Obivously, Matt. 24:29-31 cannot be pretrib passage, because Christ tells us, He will come back after tribulation.

    Matt. 24:29-31 remind me of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 telling us the same thing.

    There is no proof find anywhere in the Bible supports pretribulation rapture doctrine. Because it is man-making doctrine, also, it is only 170 years old.

    Go ahead you might not agree with me. And you can showing us many verses to us as you trying to prove us of pretrib rapture. So, otherwise, I will reply back to you as what you shall showing us of verses as 'proof' of pretrib.

    Hey, this discussison is endless. And we all know and agree that Jesus is coming again!! When? We do not know when. We can do is watch and be ready all the time for His coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     

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