Proverbs 23:31

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by His Blood Spoke My Name, Aug 26, 2006.

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  1. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    The Hebrew word for 'Look' in Proverbs 23:31 is the word 'ra'ah' and it means 'have experience with, consider, esteem, approve'. Given the meaning of the word 'Look' in that chapter, the verse tells us not to have anything to do with alcoholic beverage. Yet many say it is ok to drink in moderation.

    How can one not have experience with alcohol and yet partake of it at the same time?
     
  2. webdog

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    Clearly speaking of addiction in that passage. Keep it in context.
     
  3. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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    People want to have Jesus yet want to hold onto the world and have their lusts to. The mind that is set on having its own way will always work out an interpretation to avoid the truth.
     
  4. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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    If it is so clear, then why don't you simply exegete the passage and show us where it is "clearly" speaking of addiction.
     
  5. webdog

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    Meaning...?
     
  6. webdog

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    "Looking" at a glass of wine is a sin? Gimme a break. "Looking", in context, is the same as lusting after a woman.
     
  7. Spoudazo

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    So you can't exegete the passage?
    Look: ra'ah {raw-aw'}
     
  8. PrimePower7

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    What a fine Pharisee you are, Spoudazo!

    "We don't want people to drink to much (common, "look" has the idea of a gaze, hence the word "esteem" in the meaning), so we'll just say 'it's all bad'".

    The same school of thought that says, "We don't want men to let their long hair to get out of hand, so the only male hair cut that is right with God is the "tapered" appearance".

    Galatians 5:1 for those entangled.

    OUT:thumbs:
     
  9. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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    1 Cor. 11:14-15 for those who think long-hair is just fine.

    Again, this is all a matter of the heart.
     
  10. webdog

    webdog
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    I did. It's very simple compared to the other 248 references to wine and other strong drink in the Bible.
     
  11. webdog

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    It's more a matter of foolish legalism.
     
  12. Spoudazo

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    Well if it's so simple, it should be rather easy for your to show us from the scripture where drinking alcohol is OK.
     
  13. webdog

    webdog
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    ...once you show me one that states it's a sin.
     
  14. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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    I guess Proverbs 23:31 doesn't mean anything to you?

    Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
     
  15. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Spoudazo,

    They cannot find one scripture to refute abstinence without twisting it.

    It is clear that Solomon was saying 'Do not have experience with alcoholic beverages' in order to comptetely avoid falling into that drunken state that he discribes in the surrounding passage.

    If one lie makes one a liar, or one theft makes one a thief, and even just to lust after a woman in one's heart is considered adultery, how can one be positively sure that even drinking in moderation is not a drunkard in God's eyes?

    Based on Proverbs 23:31 and also on scriptures throughout the Word of God that show the deceiving power of alcohol or that God calls it poison of dragons and venom of asps, I can say without a doubt that alcoholic beverage in the life of a believer is strictly forbidden by God.

    And now someone will try to come back with the lamebrain 'if I eat food I am sinning because it leads to gluttony.'

    BUZZZZZ Wrong!

    Man has a need for nourishment in his body, or he will die. We are to take care of the body.

    Alcohol has no nutritional value. As a matter of fact, alcohol works against the body in many ways.

    Alcohol is not a product of God. Grapes, when left on the vine, eventually will rot. Alcohol is something that man learned how to produce from grapes and other substances.

    Also, at the end of the creation week, God looked at everything He had created, and it was 'very good.' It was not until after man's fall, and the flood, that we see alcoholic beverage being introduced to mankind. And then it brought a curse, not a blessing.

    Alcoholic beverages are to be avoided like the Bubonic plague.
     
    #15 His Blood Spoke My Name, Aug 26, 2006
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  16. webdog

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    Great Scripture. Why does it say whosoever is deceived thereby...?

    Since wine itself in itself is a "mocker" (and not the effects), I wonder why God will serve it to us Himself?

    Isa 25:6 The LORD of Hosts will prepare a feast for all the peoples on this mountain--a feast of aged wine, choice meat, finely aged wine.
     
  17. whatever

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    Don't you know, webdog? Isaiah was talking about finely aged Welch's. You should know this by now - when the Bible says something good about wine it means Welch's and when it says something bad it means alcohol. :)
     
  18. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Isa 25:6 The LORD of Hosts will prepare a feast for all the peoples on this mountain--a feast of aged wine, choice meat, finely aged wine.

    The fact that new wine was also left to stand on its lees just the same as old wine as we have just learnt. The difference is that while the lees (dregs, skin particles) added to the strength of the old wine (alcoholic) the lees in the new wine (unfermented) merely added to its sweetness and colour. Marshall's Bible Handbook also brings this out:

    The dregs of wine (lees) were used to improve the flavour, colour, and strength of new wine. "Wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6) referred to a rich full-bodied wine - a symbol of the blessings of the feast of the Lord.

    taken from Leighton G. Campbell's book "Wine in the Bible and the Case for Total Abstinence" pp. 101 -102


     
  19. whatever

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    See, webdog, it's finely aged new wine, just like I said. :)
     
  20. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Let us further consider the following:

    But on the new wine being allowed to stand, this
    principle would subside by natural gravity; hence the
    ancients poured off the upper and lucious portion of
    the wine into another vessel, repeating the process as
    often as necessary, until they procured a pure, sweet
    wine which would keep. (Kitto ii.955 Roman
    Antiquities)


    Another confirmation that wine standing on it's lees, did not always refer to alcoholic or fermented wine, is scientifically explained by Dr. William Patton:

    Chemical science teaches that the gluten may be so effectually
    separated from the juice by subsistence as to prevent fermentation.
    The gluten, being heavier than the juice, will settle to the bottom by
    its own weight if the mass can be kept from fermentation for a limited
    period. Chemistry tells us that, if the juice is kept at a tempature
    below 45 degrees, it will not ferment. The juice being kept cool, the
    gluten will settle to the bottom, and the juice, thus deprived of the
    gluten, cannot ferment
    .


    We have thus learnt from a thorough examination of the text and the facts concerning wine that it is totally unjustified to automatically assume that Isaiah 25:6 refers to the drinking of alcoholic or intoxicating wine.

    taken from Leighton G. Campbell's book "Wine in the Bible and the Case for Total Abstinence" p. 102
     
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