Psalm 12 in the King James translation of the Bible

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Craigbythesea, Jun 13, 2004.

  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Psa 12:1 <To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.> Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
    Psa 12:2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
    Psa 12:3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
    Psa 12:4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
    Psa 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
    Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
    Psa 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

    The KJO gang likes to make the false claim that God promised in Psalm 12:7 to preserve the “Word of God.” But take a look at verse 7, and compare it to verse 3. In verse three David (not God) says that “The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things.” This is NOT a promise that God made, but something the David wrote about God in a song. And so far it has not been literally true! And verse 7 is NOT a promise that God made, but something else that David said about God is a song of worship.

    Here are some more things that David wrote in his songs of worship:

    Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
    Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
    Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
    Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
    Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
    Psa 91:6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
    Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
    Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

    Are these promises that Christians can claim and that God is obligated to keep? If they are, why has He not done so?

    The Psalms are not a book of promises that God made to Christians or anybody else. They are songs of worship. To say, as to the KJOists do, that God promised in the Psalms to preserve His word and that He did so exclusively in the King James translation of the Bible goes a little beyond the song that David wrote. David’s songs say nothing about any translation of any literature of any kind. But when Christians say that they do not believe that the King James translation of the Bible exclusively is the Word of God, the KJOists accuse them of not believing God!
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Even IF this is a promise, and even IF the preservation does apply to the words of God which are purified, how can anyone claim it applies to one English translation???
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3
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    I've said many times that if Ps. 12:6-7 were about God's words, then that alone destroys the KJVO myth, as God had presented His word in English in several versions for many generations before 1611, with no two of these versions alike.

    The only counter I've seen from the KJVOs concerning this fact is their stupid "provisional Bible" theory, which says the English Bible line was purified seven times, culminating in the AV 1611. First, if that's so, then why do the KJVOs use revisions? Why don't they use the AV 1611 exclusively? Next, when did God present man with any words that weren't already pure? Third, WHERE'S THE SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR SUCH AN ABSURDITY? Ps 12:6 LIKENS God's words to silver purified 7 times; nowhere does it state God's words were purified 7 times! The verse is a COMPARISON, not an ongoing process!
     
  4. DeclareHim

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    Very good points. I had never thought of that before but those are songs of worship not promises of God. Great counter arguement. Thanks for pointing that out Craig.
     
  5. robycop3

    robycop3
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    Craig, I was booted off one EZBoard group for suggesting that Kings & Chronicles were historical accounts, written by men, that God chose for Scripture. I proved by Scripture that there were other such accounts that didn't make Scripture. However, the REAL reason they wanted rid of me was because I & my friends had proven their KJVO myth wrong, and several of their number had begun to search out the TRUTH for themselves, abandoning the KJVO myth.

    However, since GOD chose for them to become Scripture as He did Psalms, we must assume they're all true, as we know God wouldn't place a LIE into Scripture without pointing out that it IS a lie, as He did with Satan's saying, "You shall NOT die" to Eve.

    What we do NOT assume is the meaning of certain passages as privately interpreted by some cults or the followers of certain doctrines.

    But, Craig, you have some very informative & interesting points!
     
  6. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Robycop3,

    I believe that we need to be a little more careful in our wording here. Paul, in his Epistle to the Romans (3:10-12), quotes from Psalms 14 and 53 as Scripture.

    Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Psa 14:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
    Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
    Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Psa 53:1 <To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
    Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
    Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    However, David penned these words upon making a personal observation that was not entirely accurate, as is shown in Gen. 6:9, Job. 1.1, and Prov. 10:9,

    Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

    Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

    Pro 10:9 He that walketh uprightly walketh surely: but he that perverteth his ways shall be known.

    Paul was not arguing for Calvin’s doctrine of Total Depravity; Paul was arguing that both the Jews and the Gentiles had sinned and were thus in need of the Savior, Jesus Christ our Lord. And, of course, neither was David arguing for Calvin’s doctrine of Total Depravity; David was pouring his guts out. We all need to be very careful when we formulate or teach doctrines on the basis of the Scriptures. The proponents of KJO display their incompetence in Biblical hermeneutics when they base their beliefs on Psalm 12. Let’s be very careful to avoid making similar mistakes lest we prove ourselves to be incompetent.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The Holman Christian Standard
    Bible (Holman, 2004) has been preserved
    by God for the English speaking of
    the 21st Century of Our Blessed Lord
    and Savior: Messiah Yeshua!

    Psalm 12

    Oppression by the Wicked

    For the choir director: according to Sheminith. A Davidic psalm.

    1 Help, Lord, for no faithful one remains;
    the loyal have disappeared from the • human race.

    2 They lie to one another;
    they speak with flattering lips and deceptive hearts.

    3 May the Lord cut off all flattering lips
    and the tongue that speaks boastfully.

    4 They say, “Through our tongues we have power;

    5 “Because of the oppression of the afflicted
    and the groaning of the poor,
    I will now rise up,” says the Lord.
    “I will put in a safe place the one who longs for it.”

    6 The words of the Lord are pure words,
    like silver refined in an earthen furnace,
    purified seven times.

    7 You, Lord, will guard us;[4]
    You will protect us[5]

    8 The wicked wander[6]
    and what is worthless is exalted by the human race.

    [1] Mc 7:2
    [2] Lit That say, “By our tongues we are strengthened
    our lips are our own—who can be our master?”
    [3] Ps 18:30; 119:140; Pr 30:5
    [4] Some Hb mss, LXX, Jer; other Hb mss read them
    [5] Some Hb mss, LXX; other Hb mss read him from this generation forever.
    [6] Lit walk about everywhere,


    "Us" in verse seven refers, of course,
    to the "words" in verse 6 which,
    of course, refer to the HCSB [​IMG]
     
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Every "jot and title" of the HCSB is preserved. Jesus said it.

    BTW, do ANY of our English translations have "jots" or "titles"?
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    I think
    i'm going to call those little cornor
    brackets that the HCSB places at the lower
    left and lower right of words and
    phrases a "jot" and a "title".
    These jots and titles show that the
    word or phrase has been added in the
    English to help the English make sense.
    This added term is not based on the original
    Hebrew or Greek text.

    The new jot and the new title, they are not
    on my kepboard else i'd show you what i mean.
    So the electronic version of the HCSB
    does not have it. So also with the older
    method of showing the language necessary
    additional words - these were shown with
    italic letters (font) while the main text
    was roman letter (font).

    [​IMG]
     
  10. skanwmatos

    skanwmatos
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    Yes. A "jot" is the cross mark on the letter "t" and a "tittle" (proper contemporary spelling) is the technical name for the dot over the "i" and "j." [​IMG]
     
  11. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
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    Except I think in Hebrew, a missing or misplaced jot or tittle changes the meaning. In English, it is just sloppy handwriting.
     
  12. skanwmatos

    skanwmatos
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    Yes, in Hebrew, the lack of a tittle would produce a different letter. Somewhat like leaving the cross mark off the "t" could cause it to be confused with an "l." [​IMG]
     

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