Psalm 145:13 - very interesting textual information

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by BrianT, Jan 7, 2003.

  1. BrianT

    BrianT
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    A few recent discussions here recently have come together for me in an interesting way recently. Recently I mentioned Psalm 145:13 as one verse comparison where the KJV "deletes" words when compared to the NIV, and in another thread, we were talking about "jots and tittles".

    Psalm 145, in Hebrew, is an acrostic - where each verse starts with a different letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Verse 1 (after the title) starts with Alef, v2 starts with Bet, v3 with Gimel, v4 with Dalet, etc. This interesting and important feature, made of "jots and tittles", is completely lost in translation into any other language (except maybe Aramaic, which is extremely similar to Hebrew) - no English Bible that I'm aware of has the verses in alphabetical order, let alone containing every letter (which would require more verses).

    But while examining this further, it was pointed out to me that the chapter (as it stands in the KJV) contains only *21* verses, while the Hebrew alphabet has *22* letters. Somewhere in the chapter, the pattern was broken. It turns out, the pattern breaks in between verses 13 (the letter Mem) and 14 (the letter Samech). The letter Nun is skipped!

    But wait: verse 13 is twice as long in some versions (like the NIV, CEV and ESV), noting that there is another verse after 13 in one Masoretic (Hebrew) manuscript, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Aramaic translations (Peshitta and Targum) the Vulgate (Latin) and Septuagint (Greek) that isn't in most Hebrew manuscripts. This verse ("The LORD is faithful to all his promises and loving toward all he has made."), in Hebrew, starts with the missing Nun!

    As if that were not interesting enough, the chapter as a whole (in Hebrew) contains a 2-verse introduction, 4 poetical stanzas, and a 1-verse conclusion. The first line of each stanza sets the theme for the stanza: verses 3, 8, 13b, and 17. Without the missing 'Nun' verse (13b), this pattern also breaks down.

    After reviewing this evidence, and verifying most of it personally, I believe that verse 13b is authentic, originally penned by David, and was for some reason missed or dropped from most later copies. I therefore also believe that versions like the NIV and CEV are correct for keeping despite the relatively small number of supporting manuscripts, and that other versions have made a mistake in neglecting to include it.

    Interesting? Comments? Agree/disagree?

    [ January 07, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
     
  2. Refreshed

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    Yes, interesting.

    I don't know any Hebrew, though, so I can't discuss it.

    Jason
     
  3. neal4christ

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    Very interesting Brian. I just finished first semester Hebrew so I understood what you were talking about. I would like to look into this myself as well.

    Neal
     
  4. Jim1999

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    Brian,

    The Berkley Version in Modern English has a marginal note about the psalm being an acrostic pslam but with the letter nun missing. This was a 1959 publication and so the situation was noted by some translators. You are correct that none have inserted the missing letter.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    The New Century Version (NCV) has
    a paragraph break in the middle of
    Verse 13 (Psalm 145:13).

    Checking my parallel Bible
    so does the NIV and NLT.
     
  6. Bob Krajcik

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    KJV Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

    GNV Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdome is an euerlasting kingdome, and thy dominion endureth throughout all ages.

    JPS Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdom is a kingdom for all ages, and Thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

    NKJ Psalm 145:13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And Your dominion endures throughout all generations.

    RWB Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

    ASV Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

    NAU Psalm 145:13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And Your dominion endures throughout all generations.

    Here the additional words start appearing, and at least the ESV shows them with italics.

    ESV Psalm 145:13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures throughout all generations. The LORD is faithful in all his words and kind in all his works.

    NIV Psalm 145:13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The LORD is faithful to all his promises and loving toward all he has made.

    NIB Psalm 145:13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations. The LORD is faithful to all his promises and loving towards all he has made.

    NJB Psalm 145:13 Your kingship is a kingship for ever, your reign lasts from age to age. Yahweh is trustworthy in all his words, and upright in all his deeds.

    LXE Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is faithful in his words, and holy in all his works.

    So where are they coming from and why didn't the Geneva, etc recognize them????
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Could this be another proof of the paucity of documents (Greek and Hebrew) that the early English translators faced? Remember talking about the very few and limited ms that Erasmus had compared to any seminary student today!

    Modern versions, with access to ALL the Hebrew like the Dead Sea Scrolls, can give the complete Psalm (including the "nun" section omitted from the older versions). Let's face it - the KJV and all old translations are consistent with each other . . but that is no "proof" that they were right.

    We should rejoice that God preserved His Word, as He promised. And we are just finding out how great a God we have! Truly "The LORD is faithful to all his promises and loving towards all he has made." (great promise omitted in archaic versions)
     
  8. BrianT

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    As I mentioned in the first post, the words are found in one Masoretic manuscript, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and 4 ancient translations (including the Peshitta, which even Ruckman calls "the word of God"). But besides these witnesses, there is the internal evidence (the broken acrostic as well as the broken poetry pattern if the words are removed).

    A couple weeks ago, you started a thread called "What is lacking?", asking for evidence that something was missing from the KJV. I answer with confidence "Psalm 145:13b", and would be very interested in how you would refute this, especially the acrostic information.
     
  9. Bob Krajcik

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    This is interesting. I'm still checking some things out, but allow me to say, I do not share your confidence that you have found a place lacking in the KJB.

    This is an explanation, and I have to admit I was surprised to find Gill offering this as he often is free to point out supposed "better" readings to the KJB.

    John Gill:
    This psalm is written alphabetically, as is observed on the title of it; but the letter "nun" is here wanting, the reason of which Kimchi professes his ignorance of: but Jarchi gives a reason for it, such an one as it is, which he has from the Talmud {f}; because David, by a spirit of prophecy, foresaw the grievous fall of the people of Israel, the prophecy of which begins with this letter, #Am 5:2. Nor is the order always strictly observed in alphabetical psalms; in the thirty-seventh psalm the letter "ain" is wanting, and three in the twenty-fifth psalm. The Septuagint, Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions, supply this defect here, by inserting these words, "the Lord is faithful in all his words, and holy in all his works", as if they were begun with the word Nman, but they seem to be taken from #Ps 145:17, with a little alteration.
    End quote.

    Still looking, but I don't promise I will post further words refuting this place thought lacking in the KJB. I have to see what I find in time allowed. There always seems to be someone of strong opinion and studied words to defend either side in these matters.

    There are admittedly things I am not able to explain. For myself, my mind is settled on the readings of the KJB, and that does make it easier for me, but is decidedly irritating to some others.

    Bob Krajcik
     
  10. Bob Krajcik

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    Terry,

    You missed my post so did not see what I wrote.

    If you were not so busy trying to swat me rather than read what I posted you would see I did offer an explanation.
     
  11. Japheth

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    Maybe us KJVO defenders are tired of having to repeat over & over the same thing to people who regard themselves as the final authority;just a theory.

    Note: Edited by webmaster for namecalling.

    [ January 09, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: webmaster ]
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    And a bad theory, just like the KJOnly position. You keep repeating things like we have never seen them before. The problem is you won't address the questions that your comments repeatedly bring up.

    (Japheth's quote edited to remove name-calling)

    [ January 09, 2003, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Bob 63 ]
     
  13. Bob Krajcik

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    Yup, the words are added:

    Luther 1984
    LUT Psalm 145:13 Dein Reich ist ein ewiges Reich, und deine Herrschaft währet für und für. Der HERR ist getreu in all seinen Worten und gnädig in allen seinen Werken.

    Latin Vulgate (The RCC Latin)
    VUL Psalm 144:13 regnum tuum regnum omnium saeculorum et dominatio tua in omni generatione et progenie fidelis Dominus in omnibus verbis suis et sanctus in omnibus operibus suis

    Nope, not added:

    Luther 1545
    L45 Psalm 145:13 Dein Reich ist ein ewiges Reich, und deine Herrschaft währet für und für.

    Luther 1912
    LUO Psalm 145:13 Dein Reich ist ein ewiges Reich, und deine Herrschaft währet für und für.

    Spanish Reina-Valera Revised 1960
    R60 Psalm 145:13 Tu reino es reino de todos los siglos, Y tu señorío en todas las generaciones.

    Spanish Reina-Valera Update (1995)
    R95 Psalm 145:13 Tu reino es reino de todos los siglos y tu señorío por todas las generaciones.

    Reina-Valera Actualizada (1989)
    RVA Psalm 145:13 Tu reino es reino de todos los siglos, y tu dominio es de generación en generación.

    Reina-Valera (1909)
    SRV Psalm 145:13 Tu reino es reino de todos los siglos, Y tu señorío en toda generación y generación.

    Online Bible Vulgate Mapped to KJV
    VUO Psalm 145:14 (144-13) mem regnum tuum regnum omnium saeculorum et potestas tua in omni generatione et generatione

    Károli (1993) Hungarian
    HUN Psalm 145:13 A te országod örökre fennálló ország, és a te uralkodásod nemzedékrôl nemzedékre.

    Transliterated Hebrew OT English
    BHT Psalm 145:13 ma|lkûtkä malkût Kol-`ö|lämîm ûme|mšelTükä Bükol-Dôr wädôr

    WTT - Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia BHS (Hebrew Bible, Masoretic Text or Hebrew Old Testament), edited by K. Elliger and W. Rudoph of the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart, Fourth Corrected Edition, Copyright © 1966, 1977, 1983, 1990 by the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft (German Bible Society), Stuttgart.
    WTT Psalm 145:13 Sorry about that, but I don’t print Hebrew.

    WTM, JDP - Groves-Wheeler Westminster Morphology and Lemma Database (WTM), Copyright (c) 1991-1992 (Release 1), 1994 (Release 2), 1996-2000 (Release 3), and 2001 (release 3.5) by the Westminster Theological Seminary, and used by arrangement with Westminster Theological Seminary, Chestnut Hill (Philadelphia), Pennsylvania. Also known as Westminster Electronic Morphology of BHS or Westminster edition of the machine-readable morphologically tagged text of BHS or Grammatically-Tagged Hebrew Scriptures.
    WTM Psalm 145:13 Sorry about that, but I don’t print Hebrew.

    Bob Krajcik
     
  14. Bob Krajcik

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    No printed copy of the Hebrew Bible has this, yet one Hebrew manuscript has it, added as it shows by correction, at the bottom of the page (See Adam Clark Commentary). It appears they think they have corrected the Hebrew.

    The English versions I checked showed most I checked do not have the words, such as KJB, GNV, and counter that some but not all the modern versions have this added. I checked 23 English versions, 13 not showing the words and 10 using them. The Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims American Edition (1899), in English, containing 73 books (not just 66) has it. Some of these sources were posted in a different post of this thread.

    Foreign language sources (1 Cor 14:22), plus a transliterated Hebrew were also consulted. Thirteen sources were consulted, and of those eleven did not add the words. Two did add the words, and they were added to the Luther 1984 and the Latin Vulgate (The RCC Latin). Note Luther’s 1545 did not add the words. The list of sources for this will provided in a separate post.

    As I previously posted, John Gill has addressed the issue and has given reason why the readings could be rejected and why they could be construed as being spurious. Gill’s comments are available in this thread. That being said, not even all new versions use the words. That should be a warning to those that want to use the reading.

    Now to address the charges that were made by those critics of the authoritative King James Version Bible. There simply is not enough reason for counting this anomaly showing up at Psalm 145:13 and other places as a proven error.

    How the verse read should read:

    KJV Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

    Bob Krajcik

    1 Cor 1:27-29
    27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    KJV

    [ January 09, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Bob Krajcik ]
     
  15. Refreshed

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    Thanks for the research, Bob.

    Jason :D
     
  16. BrianT

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    Hi Bob,

    Yes, thanks for all that additional research, it will be very valuable for the article I am putting together on this subject.

    But let me get this straight: the words preserve the acrostic and poetical structure of the Psalm, are present in the Septuagint (which was used by Christ and the Apostles, the "standard" of the early church in the first few centuries, and called "the word of God" by the KJV translators), the Vulgate (the "standard" of the church for 1000 years), the Peshitta (the "standard" of the eastern church throughout history, and "the word of God" even according to extremists like Ruckman and Riplinger), at least one Masoretic manuscript (the "standard" Hebrew OT today) and the Dead Sea Scrolls (see today as overwhelming affirmation of the divine preservation of the OT), - yet you think the words are in error because John Gill (who you even imply has a bias towards the KJV) mentions in passing a 12th century Jewish interpreter who surmises that *lack* of words is somehow a prophecy against Israel, pointing to Amos 5:2 only because it starts with the same letter of the alphabet that would break the acrostic?

    Yeah, OK.

    Tell me: what evidence *would* be enough for you that the KJV is not perfect? And why are you not nearly as creative when trying to explain why other Bibles are "missing" other phrases the KJV has, even when they have much MORE reason for not being present than Psalm 145:13b?

    [ January 09, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
     
  17. Daniel David

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    Brian, I am glad to see this topic discussed. I am a NKJVO, ESVO, and NASBO guy. I was talking with my wife last night about his very issue.

    I would like a copy of that article when you are done with it.

    Do you have a webpage or anything where you have a collection of your articles?
     
  18. BrianT

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    Yes, but I don't touch it very often anymore. When this article is done, I'll let you know and put it up with the others currently at: http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly.
     
  19. Refreshed

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    Hey Brian,

    Just wanted to tell you that I think you have a very nice website. I didn't know you were so into the Bible version thing! I guess I should've checked your profile.

    Jason :D
     
  20. Daniel David

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    I am just hoping he gets saved... what with his bizarre takes on Melchisadek and the rapture. [​IMG]
     

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