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Psuedo-Catholic Protestant Denominations

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Mar 14, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Actually - in the 1880's James White died and immediately following his death you find key statements published about "the Three Great Persons of the Godhead".

    In fact a number of the early Adventist leaders were from the Church of the Bretheren - a non-trinitarian group. Others - like Ellen White were from Trinitarian churches like the United Methodist church.

    There were some very strong anti-trinitarian statements published in a number of periodicals during the 1860's (when the Seventh-day Adventist church formed) and the 1870's. And some of those arguments against the Trinitarian position were authored by James White.

    However - Ellen White did not engage in that. And after the death of her husband - pro-trinitarian statements can be found in all of her key documents dealing with the life of Christ and the Godhead. As a result - you see a shift in the Adventist main body until in the early 1900's we find general agreement on the Trinity.

    Certainly the statement quoted above is very indicative of the exact position that James White and some other key leaders opposed in the 1860's and 1870's.

    Certainly all agree that stattements about "The Three great persons of the Godhead" and "The Holy Spirit as the Third Person of the Godhead" are not found in non-Trinitarian works, nor are these concepts promoted as a platform of the non-Trinitarian position. Most people today would recognize them as Trinitarian.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    On a side note - in the 35 years that I have been actively looking into the teachings of Adventists as I attend various SDA churches - I never actually met anyone that did not believe in the Trinity. That did not believe that the Holy Spirit was "a person", that did not believe that Christ was from eternity past - the self-existent "I AM" with life "unborrowed and underived".

    But in the past 5 years my participation on the web has brought me in contact with a few SDAs that do not accept that teaching. And from the history of it - you certainly would have to agree that more Adventists could have been found opposed to the Trinity in the 1800's than you find today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Bob,

    You make it sound like she was afraid to disagree with her husband! Is that what you are saying?

    I don't know about all that other stuff you just said in the 2nd post, but I don't agree with the wording of FB2.

    I have seen 'non' trinitarian people get pretty indignant about it, and I have seen trinitarians get pretty indignant too.

    I don't like the idea of just 'taking someone's word for it'. I prove every doctrine before I believe it, and teach it.

    Trinity is one that cannot be proven.

    God Bless
     
  4. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    3AngelsMom,

    (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    In otherwords, the Word was numerically distinct from the Father yet of the same essence. Due to His being of the same essence it is said "the Word was God" but due to His being numerically distinct it is said "the Word was with God."

    (John 1:2-3) "The same was in the beginning with God. {3} All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

    It can be properly said that the Father made all things, yet at the same time it is proper to say that the Word made all things.

    (Gen 1:26) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

    The word God here is elohim which is plural, but not to be understood of plural gods, for the word ha precedes it showing that it is the true God, ha elohim. What then does the plurality of the word elohim denote? It denotes that the true God consists of 3 persons who are the same in essence and in judgement but distinct numerically. Thus, they here speak to each other concerning the creation of man.

    (1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

    There are 3 persons in the Godhead, yet these 3 are One: One in the record that they bear, in essence, almightiness, eternality, honor, glory, purpose, judgment, etc.

    PS: If you want to better understand RCC's or mainstream Protestant Christology you ought to start with the Apostles, Nicean and Athanasian Creeds, the Definition of Chalcedon (and Athanasius' De Incarnatione which may not be so mainstream).
     
  5. ISJ

    ISJ New Member

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    "I prove every doctrine before I believe it, and teach it."

    Umm...yeah. I'm going to send a few guys your way cause I still haven't even been able to prove that Jesus exists. I keep telling them its about this thing called faith...but they don't wanna listen to me. Since you can prove your doctrines and are convinced you have the right private interpertation...yeah...
     
  6. A.J.Armitage

    A.J.Armitage New Member

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    NOW, I don't agree with the Catholic version of the Trinity, and don't really agree with any version of it for that matter, so that one is bunk.

    :eek:

    Well then, what do you believe?

    And the NT Canon, is just really irrelivant, because even if we are missing some texts or something crazy like that, we have enought to get the general idea, in the 4 Gospels alone! So that is REALLY not something that can 'tie us' together with the CC.

    Why settle for the general idea?
     
  7. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Uh, I think that EVERYONE but you, (obviously) got that I meant prove FROM SCRIPTURE.

    If they don't believe the Bible, nothing you or I can say will convince them.

    I prove FROM the BIBLE what I am presented with or are impressed with, BEFORE I believe it.

    It's called exegesis.

    God Bless
     
  8. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    To be on the same page, we must all use the same definitions of words. To that end, I must say that faith is not believing in that which is unprovable but rather believing in what is proved by the Word of God. "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17) There can be no faith in things not in the Word of God. The Catholic says "I have faith that purgatory exists." No, that is not faith! That is fantacy! Why? It is not in the word of God.
     
  9. ISJ

    ISJ New Member

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    Uh, I think that EVERYONE but you, (obviously) got that I meant prove FROM SCRIPTURE.

    If they don't believe the Bible, nothing you or I can say will convince them.

    I prove FROM the BIBLE what I am presented with or are impressed with, BEFORE I believe it.

    It's called exegesis.

    God Bless
    </font>[/QUOTE]You're a prideful one aren't you? ;)
     
  10. ISJ

    ISJ New Member

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    To be on the same page, we must all use the same definitions of words. To that end, I must say that faith is not believing in that which is unprovable but rather believing in what is proved by the Word of God. "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17) There can be no faith in things not in the Word of God. The Catholic says "I have faith that purgatory exists." No, that is not faith! That is fantacy! Why? It is not in the word of God. </font>[/QUOTE]God doesn't purify the sinner?
     
  11. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    ISJ,

    No I am just tired of people responding with sarcastic, non sensical, irrelivant posts, that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and don't raise any valid questions.

    ;)
     
  12. ISJ

    ISJ New Member

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    Now that was ironic.
     
  13. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    ISJ,

    SO does your church have any doctrines that are like the Catholic church?
     
  14. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Please see my post to the other Helen.

    I am not settling for anything.

    Catholics claim that THEY gave us the NT Canon.

    My point TO THEM, is that EVEN if it IS them who compiled it, and EVEN if they DID take stuff out, we still have enough in what we GOT to see Jesus.

    Get it??

    God Bless
     
  15. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    3AM,
    This may help you on your study of the Trinity. It is from a letter I wrote several years ago to a young lady who asked me about it. She was getting confused from things she was learning from the JW's, who deny the Trinity.

    =====


    The concept of the Trinity is present from the opening verse of the Bible, actually. The word "God" in Genesis 1:1 is "elohim." This is not a simple plural of the word 'god.' The plural of that word, which means 'two,' is "eloh." "Elohim" means "three or more."

    In Deuteronomy 6:4, we have the resounding, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one!"

    "God" is, there again, "Elohim." What is also interesting is that the last word of that, the word "one" is the word "echad." "Echad" means unity in plurality. It is the same word used regarding marriage in Genesis. 2:24, when a man is to leave his mother and father and become one with his wife. The word which is NOT used there to mean "one" is "yachid." "Yachid" means a unique singularity.

    Now go to Isaiah 9 -- the famous Christmas verse:

    "For unto us a child is born
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor,
    Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father,
    Prince of Peace."


    Now go to Isaiah 44:6 --

    "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD
    Almighty:
    I am the first and I am the last;
    Apart from me there is no God."


    Please cross reference this with Jesus' words to John in Revelation 1:17-18 -- "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One. I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever."

    Check the Gospel of John, opening sentences, opening chapter:

    "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [Remember Genesis 1:1 -- "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.:] .... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

    Please note also that the absolutely correct translation of the Hebrew is "...and God was the Word," - I urge you to look it up.

    And remember Jesus words' at the end of Matthew: "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...." and, again, Jesus' words defining eternal life in John 17:3 clearly equate Him with the Father.

    And so, although we may not understand the Trinity with our human minds very well, the doctrine of the Trinity is present in the Bible from the first. Jesus is God Himself in the flesh, and it was because this was His very claim that the Pharisees were so outraged and attempted several times to stone Him. There are two Greek words which mean "I am." The first is "ego" which means "I am " with the emphasis on the "I". The second is "eimi", which also means "I am" with the emphasis on the "am." John records three times when Jesus used the double phrase (which is very poor Greek grammar, as the two words are never used together!) "Ego eimi", meaning "I am I AM" or "I am [the] I AM:" when He identified Himself to the woman at the well in John 4:26, in John 8:24, when responding to the Pharisaical challenge, and when He identified Himself to the Pharisees in John 8:58 (at which time the Pharisees picked up rocks to stone Him for the blasphemy of using God's name -- they thought in vain). In John 10:31-33, we see the incident where the Pharisees again want to stone him and Jesus asks them why:

    "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
    "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


    So what the Jehovah's Witnesses and the encyclopedias do not understand today, the Pharisees understood quite clearly: Jesus claimed to be God.

    In John 14-17 we have the famous last discourse of our Lord. In John 14:16, Jesus promises "another" counselor to be with the disciples forever. He identifies this Counselor as the Holy Spirit. The interesting thing here is the word He chose for "another." Again, there are two Greek words for Him to choose from. One is "allos", meaning "exactly alike in every detail." The other is "heteros" meaning "a different other". The first -- allos -- would be used if you broke a vase at someone's house and you promised to buy the owner another vase exactly like the first as a replacement. The second -- heteros -- would be used if you had a wonderful vacation with your family and you promised yourselves another vacation together next year. When Jesus referred to "another" Counselor, the word He used was "allos." He was one Counselor, but He would send "another" -- allos -- one just like Him, for the disciples. This is re-affirmed when Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "the Spirit of Truth" in John 16:13. Jesus had identified Himself as "the truth" in John 14:6. The Spirit is also identified as being present in Genesis 1:2 -- right there in the beginning.

    We may have invented the word "Trinity" somewhere along the line to try to put a name to this concept, but the reality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all being the One God (which is exactly what the Shema says), is present from the beginning to the end of the Bible.
     
  16. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Helen,

    Thanks for the commentary.

    What do you make of all these verses:

    1 Thess 3:11. Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.12. And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13. To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
    2 Thess 2: 13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17. Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

    1 Timothy 1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Titus 1:1. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3. But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4. To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    John 20:28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Acts 7:55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Rom 8:35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    1 Cor 8:6. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    2 Cor 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

    Col 1:10. That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11. Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    Mal 2:10. Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

    Mark 12:29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    John 8: 42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Rom 3: 29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    God Bless
     
  17. ISJ

    ISJ New Member

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    Sure, is that a bad thing? Think about it, the Bible came from the Catholic church (even Luther confessed to this), it's existed for at least 1600 years if not longer, and because of that it is quite likely that it will shape the way we think even as non-Catholics.

    We affirm the Trinity.
    We affirm Christ's divine nature.
    We affirm Christ's human nature.
    We affirm that he is completely divine and completely human.
    We affirm that God created the world.
    We affirm that scripture is without error.
    We affirm God's Omnipotence, Omniprescence, and Omniscience
    We affirm the virgin birth of Christ
    We affirm the death, buriel, and ressurection of Christ
    We affirm that there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.
    We affirm that Christ will return again and that the second coming has not yet taken place.
    We affirm in salvation by faith.
    We affirm salvation is by God's grace.

    And the list goes on...
     
  18. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    ISJ,

    Some of those aren't in the Catholic Church!

    Did you misunderstand the question?

    God Bless
     
  19. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Thanks for the commentary.

    Did you read it?


    What do you make of all these verses:...

    They are referring to the different persons of the Trinity; they do not deny the reality of the Trinity.
     
  20. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Helen,

    Of course I read it.

    Is that all you have to say about all those verses?

    God Bless
     
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