psychology

Jim1999, with some of your comments I agree. With others, maybe not.

I think I agree with you here. My counseling prof in seminary says it like this: Sometimes, in dealing with a troubled person, there is a presentation problem--the problem the person thinks they have, and there is an underlying problem--the problem they actually have. Getting from the presentation problem to the root problem requires patience, persistence, and wisdom as you have said. Once the counsellor begins to decipher the root problem, there is the difficulty of getting the counsellee to recognize the root problem and to begin to deal with it.

I agree with this to a point also.

But, Jim1999, the Christian religion is the only thing that truly allows us to address the whole man. Only Christianity recognizes that man is both a physical AND a spiritual being, has a proper understanding of both, and is willing to address both in a productive way. Secular psychology has a fundamental weakness which I do not think you can avoid (and given your approach I don't think you can answer). Is the soul of man a physical entity which is subject to physical diseases or is the soul of man a spiritual entity which is weakened by the effects of the curse of sin? If the answer is the former, then bring on the secular psychology. If the answer is the latter, then the scriptures are the ONLY reliable source for the cure.

 

Going through some web files today for another reason and came across this, which I thought might be of interest to some here:


The following revealing and useful quotes are from a college textbook on the history of psychology, A HISTORY OF MODERN PSYCHOLOGY, by Duane Schultz, (1981, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc.) in a ten page section
entitled: THE EVOLUTION REVOLUTION: CHARLES DARWIN (1809-1882). (Emphasis added)

"Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, published in 1859, is considered one of the most important books in the history of Western civilization. The theory of evolution presented in this work freed scholars from constraining traditions and superstitions and ushered in the era of maturity and respectability for the life sciences. The theory of evolution was also to have a tremendous impact on contemporary psychology. American psychology today owes its form and substance as much to the influence of evolutionary theory as to any other idea or individual." (p. 114) "Above all, there was the growing influence of science. People were less content to base their knowledge of themselves and their world on what the Bible and ancient authorities had stated to be true. They were ready to put their faith in science." (p. 115) "Darwin's work in the last quarter of the nineteenth century was a major force in shaping modern psychology. The theory raised the intriguing possibility of a continuity in mental functioning between animals and humans." (p. 120)

 

On the first, I agree. I have never disagreed. WE should know where people are coming from. One the second, any usefulness or validity of psychology has its roots in Scripture and so we are covered on that respect. But this is what not integrationists are arguing for. It is something entirely different.

I apologize. I do not mean to offend you. They were generic comments directed at no one in particular. However, I cannot help but think, no matter how strong our language, that there is an implicity distrust that the Bible can really "equip us for every good work" (2 Tim 3:16-17), that it can really give us "everything necessary for life and godliness" (2 Peter 1:3) if we insist on the necessity of something else to help us along with our Bible. I cannot see how your reconcile this. If you say that psychology is absolutely necessary to equip us for every good work, then it seems you cannot say that the Bible is sufficient for that. To me, I cannot reconcile that and I have seen no convincing argument for it.

Again, Murph, I consider you a friend and I mean no illwill towards you in this regard. It was not intended to be offensive. My goal, as it always has been in this general topic, is that we have a radical biblical orientation. I fear that modern day Christianity has lost that.

 

This is well stated. I think it is absolutely true and is completely consistent with what I believe the biblical approach to this issue is.

Again, I agree. The Bible does not present a "one size fits all" solution. It addresses problems on an individual basis but it recognizes that all problems have similarities that can be dealt with effectivel through right means.

Again, I agree, this time with a caveat. The Bible has all the tools necessary to deal with these problems. It is the tool box, not merely a tool. Any validity of psychology is rooted in Scripture.

Very true, for the most part, provided this counseling is done by those who know what questions to ask and how to get to the right place The advantage of asking the right questions and leading them to the biblical answer is that ultimately, they are the ones who come up with the solution and therefore, they cannot blame you for enforcing something on them. You can always say, "You are the one that said it." It is the most effective approach because how can they argue with their own solution.

 

quote:
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Before we can apply the truths of the Christian religion, we must address the whole man, the ill mind, the dispossessed person.

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But, Jim1999, the Christian religion is the only thing that truly allows us to address the whole man. Only Christianity recognizes that man is both a physical AND a spiritual being, has a proper understanding of both, and is willing to address both in a productive way. Secular psychology has a fundamental weakness which I do not think you can avoid (and given your approach I don't think you can answer). Is the soul of man a physical entity which is subject to physical diseases or is the soul of man a spiritual entity which is weakened by the effects of the curse of sin? If the answer is the former, then bring on the secular psychology. If the answer is the latter, then the scriptures are the ONLY reliable source for the cure.
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Brother Swaimj:

1. You caught me...I should have said the "natural" man rather than "whole" man. That was my error..I did, however, qualify that by saying "dispossessed" which means dislodged. The whole man is dislodged from his wholeness in that the natural man has excluded his spiritual side.

2. I agree that secular psychology falls short in dealing with the whole man, and I mentioned the use of the tools of secular psychology; the process of asking questions and the suppositions that we have an idea how the mind works. I did mention that we eventually slide into the biblical approach and deal with the spirit of man.

3. My thesis is that we cannot deal with the spiritual side, the biblical approach, until we have gained the confidence of the natural man. He just won't listen. There are always exceptions, but in my experience, these are rare cases rather than the rule.

Sorry for the misleading in employing the use of whole man when in fact I meant the natural man.

I am very pleased to read that your course includes pastoral counselling and that you are quite alert in your observations. You will do well, my friend. God bless.

Cheers,

Jim

PS, If you can get your hands on this little 1967 book by Vernon Grounds, Emotional Problems and the Gospel, published by Zondervan under the Contemporary Evangelical Perspectives series, you would greatly benefit.

 

Many individuals on this thread sound like the televangelists who tell people that God doesn't heal them because they had hidden sin in their lives or some other piece of clap trap such as this.

I watched a wonderful woman in the 70's die of female problems. She bled to death because she did not want people to think God was not healing her because of some terrible sin in her life so she refused to go to the Doctor. She said she was trusting in God. Her son in law finally rushed her to the hospital after it was too late.

People who don't understand things should not try to diagnose others and offer any kind of advice.

I went to church with a woman who had this problem and she was faithful to church. To prayer. She understood the word. Yet if she was not on her medication she was totally mentally unstable. The medication kept her stable. What should the pastor have done. Told her get off the medicine and trust God. REad the Bible and you will be ok. No.

Every male in my moms family including myself has every symptom of what PTW refuses to believe in ADD or ADHD. Yes, psychiatrists and psychologists have abused this diagnosis but it does not do away with the fact that this is a true problem whether he wants to believe it or not.

I have lived the problem for 47 years and no I have not been on medication and my life has been sometimes unbearable. I read the word. I pray and I believe God can heal because I have prayed for people and God has healed them because he is a healer but God has chosen not to heal me of this. Just like God did not heal Paul of his infirmity.

My mind races continuously. When I hear a song it plays in my mind 24 hours a day for many days. Even when I sleep. I have major trouble focusing very long and it has gotten worse as I have gotten older. I cannot concentrate now on reading the Bible as I used to. Any distraction takes away my attention. The same when I pray. Anything distracts me and I lose concentration. This is very frustrating and quoting scriptures and doing as others on this post as suggested has not worked. I repent everyday and ask God to root out anything wrong but you know what I still have this problem. I interrupt people when they are talking not to be rude but I am so afraid of not remembering what I need to say I butt in and this makes my life very uncomfortable and even when I try not to do this I still catch myself interrupting. This causes major problems in my marriage.

I can be sitting in a restaurant or another place and I will totally space out. It is like I lose my surroundings. I can be there and suddenly my hearing picks up a conversation and I am distracted by it and cannot concentrate on those talking to me yet at other times I can watch tv, read a book and listen to a conversation and tell someone exactly what happened on tv, what i was reading and what the person said. These are just a few of the things I go through.

What people on this thread has forgotten is that women in the 40's and 50's and 60's etc and even later took all different kinds of chemicals to keep themselves from getting pregnant. Many women took different kinds of pills for weight loss. Over the counter chemicals. Doctors prescribed amphetamines etc. Then you have those who were on valium etc. Also it has been a proven fact that chemicals or medicines given to pregnant
women for morning sickness/nausea/vomiting has caused cancers etc in these womens children.

No wonder we have problems with people having chemical balances. God gave the formula for natural birth control that has been proven to have worked without taking chemicals but just like abortion people want to not pay the consequence for their immoral behavior.

I have had doctors tell me that it has been proven that a lot of these things have been caused by medicines and chemicals women took but it has been squelched by drug companies and their lobbyists. My nephew was diagnosed with severe ADHD and I talked to is psychiatrist and he told me the same thing. He said that a lot of our medical problems are caused by pills women took before their pregnancy or during it and the foods they eat that has chemicals sprayed on them. Also all the hormones and stimulants they give to cows to produce more milk or to make them fatter for market. The same with hogs and chickens and their eggs.

 

I'm curious...what meds taken by pregnant women caused cancer in their children? I took medicine for severe nausea,so I would like to know more about this.

Like I have stated about medical help,I absolutely think we should allow medical help for medical conditions,absolutely. It's the questionable things that I'm not sure about.....alot of times it is just unbiblical thinking and dealing with life,sometimes it is real med condition.

 

I haven't seen anyone say anything even remotely close to this. This is so far off topic it raises the question of why you post it here. You talk of a 70 year old woman who refused to seek help with medical problems. We have said time and again that medical problems deserve medical attention. That was a lame attempt at a sympathetic association to try to refute a point you disagree with.

I absolutely agree. Which is what my whole point is based on. We are dealing with two different types of problems: pysical/medical and spiritual/mental. Those who are trained in physical/medical problems should deal with those. I am not trained in that so I do not deal with them. In counseling, the first homework assignment is to get a complete physical examination to rule out physical causes. Once that has been ruled out, the only thing left is mental/spiritual problems and I am trained in that. That is why I feel perfectly comfortable dealing with those problems.

And how do you know all this?? Because it has been tested and verified, which is exactly my point. I read your long description of your own life and can tell you that I experience every one of those things. I am constantly struggling with it. But it is a process of mental discipline. And I am a living testimony that it does not take drugs to deal with it. Though I struggle with it, I have experienced victory over it because I am committed to it.

Oftentimes, these diagnoses are ways to escape responsibility. A rebellious and disobedient child is told he can't really help it, it is just his ADD. Scripture however says that there is not a temptation that "can't be helped." People who rebel make choices to do so. You complain that drugs in mothers in the 50-70s has made kids turn out the way they are and you propose solving the problem with more drugs. What will that do to your kids?? Are you really willing to perpetuate the problem?? Drugs like Ritalin, Prozac, and others have been shown to have dangerous side effects and consquences. Yet we push them like candy rather than deal with teh real issues. This is becuase people who, as you say, don't understand the issues are attempting to solve them. It perpetuates a cycle of hopelessness that is unbiblical. Only when we diagnose the problem properly can we offer any real hope.

My appeal is that we guide our life by Scripture. We need a radically oriented view. No one here is suggested that we ignore medical treatment for medical problems. No one is suggesting that unqualified people attempt to solve problems. What we are suggesting is that we be honest and biblical about our assessment of problems and treat them in a way that provides hope to the person suffering.

 

Pastor Larry: Congratulations that you are able to do this but you are one and there are thousands who cannot. It is very unfair of you to say just because you can do something means everyone else can do the same.

As far as there not being researched. Sir you need to study a subject very closely before criticizing something because doctors and psychiatrists and scientists have been doing studies and they do the research on cadavers and they have recently said that they have seen differences in certain part of the brain in people with Bi-polarism or ADHD. This is well documented. I am sorry that you have not taken time to find these things out before you make such critical statements.

I said in my post that doctors and psychiatrists etc know for a fact that a lot of these problems have been caused by what I said. Please research very carefully Pastor Larry before commenting to things.

Just because society abuses diagnoses as I posted before does not mean there are no legitimate cases of the problem. Just because parents don't want to deal with a rebellious child etc does not mean there are not real kids with real ADD or ADHD or bi-polarism.

My statement about the televangelists goes back to those posts where people have made the statements that people who are on these medications are rebellious and have not tried reading the Bible and praying. You know it has been said. These remarks are wrong because you or I or no one else on this thread knows what is in a persons heart. Only God knows. Is anyone here on this thread claiming to be God almighty?

What I have read in many posts on the board are people who have a Pharasaical spirit about them. They go around judging others when Jesus said that is not our job but God's. Won't show mercy towards anyone. They take this I am right and you are wrong attitude and it is ok to feel that you are right but there is a way to show this.

God has a way of dealing with people who are judgemental and who have a problem with showing mercy.

As far as commercials and drug companies. Take a look at the world we live in today. The fast paced world we live in. High Crime. Sins and things that people have not had to deal with so much in years past. The constant fight to stay employed and to be able to make ends meet.

The church is at fault with all of this in the fact that the church has become weak. Preachers are so afraid of losing people from their churches they won't preach against sin openly from behind their pulpits. What is behind that spirit. Money and greed. If I lose so many people then I will have to change my lifestyle. I cannot drive my fancy car and live in my fancy home. I cannot wear my fancy clothes.

I sat in a church for nearly 3 years and never once did I hear the pastor speak out against sin.
Never once. Do you honestly think a person could go to a preacher like this and get any kind of counseling or help to deal with these things?
There are thousands of churches across this country that are just like this one.

This is why people turn to medication and Christian counselors and psychologists. They cannot find help in the majority of churches in the nation.

 

Matter of fact I have been told by preachers that I need to go seek professional help.

 

I am aware of those studies and I have made statements to the effect that there are legitimate cases. But the vast majority are not. You must also remember that "correlation does nto imply causality." Just because two things exist, does not mean that one causes the other.

And again, I agreed with you that they had tested these things and substantiated them. That is far different than what is going on in many cases. Those cases you reference are not my concern. I am concerned about the vast majority of others who would rather take the easier way out.

Actually I don't remember that being said here, but that is fine. I have not made those statements. My focus has been on biblical thinking and the radical reorientation of the mind.

I agree. He also has a way of dealing with people who teach falsely, who lead others astray because they do not know what the Scripture teaches. You might define that very differently than I would but the reality remains that God deals with those who do not act and teach biblically.

I would cautious to paint all preachers with this brush. There are some no doubt like this. I know some personally and have been directly told by them that we cannot say or preach certain things becuase we might lose their money and we can't do without it. I totally reject that. It is wrong to do such. And it is unfortunate when the churches of today are so ill-equipped to deal with these types of problems. The answer, IMO, is a return to the sufficiency of Scripture, a willingness to speak the truth in love, to call sin "sin" and deal with as such. Seeking other solutions is as wrong as it is ultimately unhelpful.

 

I can guarantee you that I am not one of those people seeking an easy way out. I have prayed and sought God for years but it seems like my problem gets worse instead of better.

I have lost a child, a parent, a marriage to infidelity and recently a sibling. These things have just amplified my problem.

 

I do not see it as an unwillingness to address or be ruled by Scripture. Please understand that for anyone, most certainly me, to speak in any way of my personal experience in this matter is very hard. To say anything leaves one open to the presupposition that one is not trusting Scripture and has deep-rooted sin. How different than if I had a broken leg. Yet I do not see it as in opposition to Scripture. I will say that there is no short proof-text I can quote.

But you several times have given your experiences, too, implying that if I were as disciplined Scripturally as you that I would not have needed medicine.
You stated to hrhema that you were not the one to state that idea. I disagree.
I think that your comments have implied that many like me who had a real problem leaped to the first "doctor" who would drug them out of dealing with life. It works that way more rarely than you seem to suppose. One of my problems, frankly, was menopause, which is now more under control. Medicine helped me "renew my mind" and "bring every thought captive". I have increased respect for the intricacies of the body and the difficulties of diagnosis. And moment by moment, I still live as a child of God, with Him working in me. I am not immune from normal depression, etc., nor do I try to escape it with a pill.

Here is a link I hope works. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/8t2/8t2028.html
As this article points out, depression, etc. is far beyond what many people normally think it is.

And in the Bible, there are numerous examples of really depressed people that God deals with directly and in a healing way. Note Job, who despairs of life. And his three comforters who tell him to straighten up his thoughts are corrected by God. Elijah was ministered to directly by angels.

You tend to doubt my belief in the sufficiency of Scripture. I guess I do have problems with the John MacArthur definition of it you present.
Yes, Scripture is sufficient, but it does not tell you to avoid medicine when you need it.
And it is not a textbook of detailed blueprints for every action in life. If I were a medical student, I would not rely on the sufficiency of Scripture to learn how to take out an appendix or what an appendix is. Scripture is sufficient in salvation and in its overarching principles of life. Everything it says is true but it does not speak exhaustively in every particular. If something you do violates a Scriptural principle, you do wrong.

You have said several times that mind-altering drugs were available then. Medicine certainly was not available then like it is now. The drug I took for a while was invented less than 10 years ago.

Dear hrhema, please do not continue to suffer like that. Please go to the doctor. Get some medicine!!

Karen

 

I wanted to make sure that the link I gave was not lost in my long post. It is a great one!
Did you know that Charles Spurgeon was incapacitated for 2-3 months per year because of depression and before modern medicine? Wonder what his root sin was?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/8t2/8t2028.html

Karen

 

His wife was deathly ill for quite some time. He was required to spend alot of time with her. He wasn't privy to some self-proclaimed expert on human behavior (which is a joke). I imagine that and the downgrade controversy weighed him down and contributed to an early death.

I suppose such a person would be drugged up today by some worthless quack who is NOT a medical doctor. Your smugness toward those who uphold Scripture as being completely sufficient is telling of your position on the matter.

I have pretty much stayed out of this one. I quoted 2 Tim. 3:16-17 at the beginning. Pastor Larry has brought it up more than once. Until one of the pro-psychology people answer why Scripture is lacking and really incomplete (when God says otherwise), then this discussion might get somewhere.

Keep in mind that in all his time on earth, the Master Physician NEVER once gave psychological answers. In fact, on the road Emaeus, Jesus calmed their fears by proper exposition of the Word. Perhaps he just wasn't read up on the latest strategy to interpret human emotions.

 

PTW,
How many college level psychology courses have you taken?

 

All he can do is insult others intelligence and learning.

Shouldn't there be a moderator for this forum???

Cheers,

Not so American, Jim

[ February 12, 2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Preach the Word ]