Pure unmerited favor "Grace"

King James Bond · Nov 6, 2005

I see on the "Too free or not too free" no one has proven that free-will exists.

Even after a large amount of Scripture was produced showing that God is and has control over men, people still cry out "Free-will".

They seem to use choice as their determining factor of proof that free-will exists.

I do not recall anyone saying choices do not exist. I recall saying free-will does not exist. I do not recall saying that people have no will.

I would like to show you a simple illustration demonstrating how freewill, free choice, choice, synergism, creature effort, or mans will, is not a necessitating factor in regard to “receiving” salvation.

The focus point in the following illustration is to show that mercy can be gracefully given, and thereby received, without regard to an utterly helpless creature having any will or power at all.

This illustration should show that God can save sinners period! All sinners are enemies.

Infants, and mentally disabled persons, can, and may be saved by the will of God and His power regardless of their capacity to “believe” anything at all.

The “believe” is not the primary issue at hand. The primary issue is that people are against Him, and He still saves them. He does so by His will, His power, and without regard to the creature and its bent will, sinful nature, and lack of power. God is strength, people are weak.

Here goes;

Once there was an evil man. Without regard to his will, he was placed on a border road between two kingdoms. One kingdom was perfect and offered everything good, holy, and wonderful. The other kingdom was evil and offered every conceivable sin under the sun.

Anyone in the evil kingdom was an absolute enemy of the good kingdom. Of his own will, the evil man was pleased with the darker kingdom even though the light of the wonderful kingdom was always present. The man loved darkness and hated the light. He willingly chose to venture deep into the dark kingdom seeking the evil desires of his own wicked heart.

He was powerfully overtaken by robbers against his will. He was robbed, beaten, thrown over the side of a cliff, and left for dead. He was left in a coma and therefore could not see, could not hear, and had no power within himself to cry out for help. He was left in an utterly helpless, miserable condition, heading toward doom. For all practical purposes he was dead.

The great and good king of the wonderful kingdom had received news from his agents that such a thing had happened to the evil man. The good king himself went into the evil kingdom to rescue his dying enemy. The robbers came by and attempted to kill both the good king, and the evil man. The good king had more power than all the evil creatures living in the evil kingdom. He rescued the evil man.

It was a genuine rescue and there existed no power in the evil kingdom capable of thwarting his plan. The good king took his dying enemy to the best hospital in his good kingdom and made him new.

I ask a few questions;

1: Did the beaten man “receive” mercy by the “grace” of the good king or not?
2: Did the beaten man have to “choose” the kings kindness to “receive” it?
3: Was the beaten man capable of helping to save himself out of his dire situation, or was his “salvation” dependent entirely on the complete generosity and kindness of the good kings mercy?
4: Where was the mans “will” or “power” in this entire situation?
5: Whose will and power was important in salvation?
6: Did the evil enemy deserve to be saved?
7: What did the evil man do to earn such favor?

KJB

King James Bond · Nov 6, 2005

Ok KJB,

Thats it! You are fired!

But first one more question.

Is the good king obligated to rescue everybody out of the evil kingdom?

KJB

Mark Osgatharp · Nov 6, 2005

King James Bond,

God is not obligated to do anything other than mete out justice to those who have offended His holiness. But in His grace and mercy He sent His Son to, the words of Hebrews, "taste death for every man" and fling open the doors of the kingdom for "whosoever will."

You can say that man has no will in the matter but the Bible says,

"Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely."

Mark Osgatharp

Joseph_Botwinick · Nov 6, 2005

Originally posted by King James Bond:
I do not recall anyone saying choices do not exist. I recall saying free-will does not exist. I do not recall saying that people have no will.

KJB
Click to expand...

Mark,

He did not say that man has no will.

Joseph Botwinick

King James Bond · Nov 6, 2005

Joseph_Botwinick,

Exactly! I am certain people have will. It is very obvious.

The point I try to make about mans will is who has affected mans will?

I say it is only by the grace of God and Him affecting the wills of men that makes them willing to do what by nature they were never willing to do.

Rom 10:20 I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” from Isaiah 65:1

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Phil 1:6 And I am sure that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on that day when Christ Jesus comes back again.

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Cor 4: 7 What makes you better than anyone else? What do you have that God hasn't given you? And if all you have is from God, why boast as though you have accomplished something on your own?

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them–yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

2 Cor 3:5 It is not that we think we can do anything of lasting value by ourselves. Our only power and success come from God.

James 1:17-18 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

So I regard His will as important and mine as wretched....except that He is in me and that is and was my only hope. He affects with effect.

So in basics I give all glory to God and none to myself at all.

KJB

Mark Osgatharp · Nov 6, 2005

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
He did not say that man has no will.
Click to expand...

Joseph,

I didn't say he said "man has no will." I said, "no will in the matter."

All Calvinists say that man has no will in the matter of salvation. And then when you show them that the Bible says we do have a will in the matter, they just say God predestinated it to be that way.

What I don't understand is why Calvinsits don't just bybass all the quibbling and say, "It's a done deal" - because that is exactly what they believe.

Mark Osgatharp

Joseph_Botwinick · Nov 6, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely."

Mark Osgatharp
Click to expand...

I think the Calvinist would argue that the whosoevers who will are those who are enabled by the Spirit of God to overcome their totally depraved sin nature. Now, if this applies to everyone, then we would be led to ultimately believe in a form of universalism that says everyone will be saved.

Joseph Botwinick

Mark Osgatharp · Nov 6, 2005

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I think the Calvinist would argue that the whosoevers who will are those who are enabled by the Spirit of God to overcome their totally depraved sin nature. Now, if this applies to everyone, then we would be led to ultimately believe in a form of universalism that says everyone will be saved.
Click to expand...

You are right, universalism is just Calvinism consistently applied to the loving character of God. But the problem with your objection here is that it is based on a Calvinist presuposition.

But when you accept the Biblical fact that all men are enabled by God to believe but only some act on that enablement, God's mercy toward all men is apparent and each man must bear responsibility for His own response to God's offer of mercy.

Mark Osgatharp

Joseph_Botwinick · Nov 6, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I think the Calvinist would argue that the whosoevers who will are those who are enabled by the Spirit of God to overcome their totally depraved sin nature. Now, if this applies to everyone, then we would be led to ultimately believe in a form of universalism that says everyone will be saved.
Click to expand...

You are right, universalism is just Calvinism consistently applied to the loving character of God. But the problem with your objection here is that it is based on a Calvinist presuposition.

But when you accept the Biblical fact that all men are enabled by God to believe but only some act on that enablement, God's mercy toward all men is apparent and each man must bear responsibility for His own response to God's offer of mercy.

Mark Osgatharp [/QUOTE]You also accept the idea that God is a failure and is not completely sovereign. I am not willing to accept that as God does not fail.

Joseph Botwinick

King James Bond · Nov 6, 2005

Mark,

Well that is why I would not say that the will of men is the determining factor in salvation.

That means God may save people by working in them to make them willing.

God may also save an infant that is not capable of willing anything at all.

My point is that it is the grace of God that saves.

He makes people willing.

Some people (babies and those with mental conditions for example) may still be saved not by an exercise of their will, but by the exercise of God's grace.

Because that is how all people are saved, by His grace.

It is by grace people are saved. It may be through faith....but it is by grace.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

It is clear that the "Gospel" is the power of God to salvation. The belief is not the power of God or man to salvation.

It could have been said "The Gospel is the power of God to salvation" and been left at that as truth. Everything else in the statement is extra added information but not the focus.

These are points that the London Baptist Confession of Faith is very clear on. They have provided "proof texts" to back up their claims.

KJB

Ray Berrian · Nov 6, 2005

Ephesians 2:8 affirms the spiritual fact that the Lord God can give the gift of His grace to people. A gift is not really a gift until a sinner receives it.

Though salvation is available to all sinners it does no good if it stays, if you will, in Heaven without any respondent.

The faith aspect of Ephesians chapter two is when the sinner prompted by the Spirit of God, reaches out to receive the Gift of the Son, our Savior.

If I had 50 Christmas gifts during that season of the year and could not deliver them to my 50 friends and love ones, the gifts would remain in my home, until those people came to my house to acknowledge my gift of love for them.

The gift of salvation is at home in Heaven but the lost must respond in faith so the Gift of Christ can be given to needy sinners by the mighty working of God the Holy Spirit. He comes to indwell sinners who come to know the Son [I John 3:9].

King James Bond · Nov 6, 2005

Ray,

Everyday on the roads and highways in the USA there are car accidents.

Some of the accidents I am sure are very violent and do much harm.

I would venture to say honestly that some people involved in such accidents are in no condition to ask for any help or gift from anybody.

Some of them are simply helpless as they lay bleeding to death and knocked unconscience.

When paramedics come along and administer life saving first aid to these people would you say they are recieving a gift or not?

When paramedics insert something into the arm of a helpless victim that revives them and saves them are these helpless people receiving a gift?

Do these people involved in an accident have to ask, beg, plead, cry, will, effort, reach out, or do anything at all to get a gift from someone that is willing to give the gift?

The Biblical premise in salvation is that people are always passive and God is active.

I have just proven that a person does not have to do anything to receive a gift.

They do not have to ask for it to get it.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death....but the free gift of God is eternal life.

The gift is not an opportunity to have eternal life if you do this that or the other.

The free gift IS eternal life!

If I was walking down the sidewalk and you came along and punched me in the eye.......did I receive a punch in the eye or not? Did I have to ask for it to get it?

The entire scenario on my first post (topic) shows that mercy can be shown without a person asking for it.

We are to show mercy to others in the same way.

KJB

HanSola2000 · Nov 6, 2005

KJB said:

"I do not recall anyone saying choices do not exist. I recall saying free-will does not exist. I do not recall saying that people have no will."

-----------------------

Yes you did! To deny freewill is to deny man a will. You see, free-will is really an oxy-moron. To have a will is to say free. A will by definition is the ability for self-determination.

You are simply trained to believe in contradcitions, of which Calvinism is the greatest of all contradcitions, and that you won't believe any Bible verse no matter what it says, here you go:

Levitticus:
1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him

Now what else do you need? "His own VOLUNTARY WILL"??? Now if this does not prove it to you, from God's own mouth, that not only is man's will voluntary, but that God desires those who come to Him to do so in that fashion, nothing will. Notice the typology also! God wanted men to come voluntarily to receive atonement! Hello! Do you really think it is any different??? Why was this so important to God?

But there is more:

Ezekiel 46:
12 Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.

Look at this!!! the prince shall prepare a "voluntaryburnt offering or peace offering VOLUNTARILY unto the Lord"!!! Twice, as if God knew Calvinists would appear one day! So here we see AGAIN the imporatnce of men voluntarily coming to Him, whcih then reveals to us that we are made with a free-will, and that God honors the way He made us and desires us to come willingly.

Even when giving money, the NT teaches us not to give grudingly, but to give only if we can do it cheerfully. You see, God knows how He made us, and the way the Bible speaks always presupposes this understanding.

The problem with Calvinists is that they do not BELEIVE the Bible when it comes to HOW God made man, and that even the fall did not totally alter his constitution. Sin entered in and ruined things, but made is still like God--a self-determining being who can choose one way or another. And it pleases the Lord, in His Sovereignty, to so relate to man with persuasion rather than force. Too bad Calvinists do not like God's Sovereign dealings and created order, and seek to make up another one- whcih is horrible indeed.

Kismet · Nov 6, 2005

Bond, King James Bond,

I love to hear your theology, it seems shaken not stirred!

You are absolutely correct in that salvation man is ALWAYS depicted as passive. God is the active agent. There is active, passive, and middle voice in scripture. Actually there are more but these three should suffice for the present discussion. Passive indicates that the person is being acted upon as you so clearly pointed out.

We see this in statements as, "The sun shines upon my back." The sun is actively shining while my back passively receives the benefit of the sun's rays. Man is ALWAYS passive in salvation in scripture. The middle voice indicates a cooperative effort by both parties. The middle voice is never used for salvation of man in scripture. I have challenged many people on these forums to produce just ONE verse concerning salvation of man where man is active or middle... needless to say no-one has produced such a verse. This is simply so because no such verse exists. Man passively recieves salvation and offers no cooperative effort whatsoever.

This one simple fact should dispel any synergistic notion on the part of Moderate-Calvinists, Arminians, Pelagians, and Semi-Pelagians alike... but it doesn't! Why? Because their belief is not founded on such things. They hold their beliefs passionately because of the implications to the contrary. It is not that their faith is properly founded it is rather that the opposing position is unthinkable.

They are more of opposers of Calvinism than defenders of free-will. Free-will has been disproved in so many ways and on so many levels that to hold free-will as a viable option is ludicrous and unfounded. Yet they cling to it for to grasp the Absolute Soveriegn Grace of God and Christ alone would seem to invoke a loss of self in every aspect of life. People just don't want to let go!

You should talk with Q and see if he has any gadgets to diffuse the plans of Dr. No and his cohorts!

Affectionately Yours,

Kismet

HanSola2000 · Nov 6, 2005

Sorry there Kismet, but my above post proves you wrong. Beleive the verses posted and let go of John Calvin's serious errors.

Men KNOW they have a free-will anyway, and no one can talk them out of it anymmore than you can convince them gravity doesn't exist. We have experienced both so many times and ways that it is impossible to argue otherwise. And Scripture refutes your ideas anyway.

Besides, if your ideas were true, I am simply posting this, predestined and controlled by God to argue with you. God wants me to utter these falsehoods about me having a free-will when I have none. How nice for me to think I am free when really, I am a robot and puppet. Why do you argue with me--you are arguing with God! He mkes me post these things and believe what I do. He's "Sovereign"!

King James Bond · Nov 6, 2005

Kismet,

Wonderful to see you on here! I really hope to see many more of your posts. You are right about people not wanting to let go. It proves they have no free-will but are rather unable and bound to pride and a self-righteous attitude.

HanSola2000,

Do I seem unwilling to be saved to you? If God was to place His will in my heart would it now also be my will or not? May I volunteer because of an effect that has affected me?

Hans, Here is some text showing that God has control over people;

Job 12:13-->
"But true wisdom and power are with God; counsel and understanding are his. What he destroys cannot be rebuilt. When he closes in on someone, there is no escape. If he holds back the rain, the earth becomes a desert. If he releases the waters, they flood the earth."

"Yes, strength and wisdom are with him; deceivers and deceived are both in his power. He leads counselors away stripped of good judgment; he drives judges to madness. He removes the royal robe of kings. With ropes around their waist, they are led away. He leads priests away stripped of status; he overthrows the mighty. He silences the trusted adviser, and he removes the insight of the elders. He pours disgrace upon princes and confiscates weapons from the strong."

"He floods the darkness with light; he brings light to the deepest gloom. He raises up nations, and he destroys them. He makes nations expand, and he abandons them. He takes away the understanding of kings, and he leaves them wandering in a wasteland without a path. They grope in the darkness without a light. He makes them stagger like drunkards."

It sure seems He has control over all kinds of people.

KJB

Mark Osgatharp · Nov 6, 2005

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
You also accept the idea that God is a failure and is not completely sovereign. I am not willing to accept that as God does not fail.
Click to expand...

Had God purposed to save all men and then failed to do so, you might have a case. But God purposed only to make salvation available to draw all men to Himself, and then leave man to accept or reject Him.

Actually, the Calvinists are the ones who deny the sovreignty of God. Calvinists say that God can't give man any choice. I say that God in His sovreignty gave man the choice.

Mark Osgatharp

Joseph_Botwinick · Nov 6, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
You also accept the idea that God is a failure and is not completely sovereign. I am not willing to accept that as God does not fail.
Click to expand...

Calvinists say that God can't give man any choice.

Mark Osgatharp [/QUOTE]Calvinist do not say that. Your assessment of their teaching is incorrect.

Joseph Botwinick

2BHizown · Nov 6, 2005

HanSola, you are so wrong and out of step with the Lord! You must either realize that is your conditon and repent or stop accusing those that are committed to the Lord of serious errors! So many have been trying to explain the doctrines of grace to you but you dont really seem interested in truth, just think about it! The above posts are so sound, so great, so clearly stated that any one seriously interested in truth would find it there!
Prayers,

HanSola2000 · Nov 7, 2005

Your doctrines are not "the doctrines of grace" no matter how many times you repeat that mantra. I proved FROM SCRIPTURE that man DOES have a "free-will" and God Himself called it his own "voluntary will", and made real sure man came to Him for atonement VOLUNTARILY. There goes all five points of Johnnie Calvin! So I don't expect a response from KJB, because those verses decisively refute him. Now, do you deny the verses in Leviticus and Ezekiel???

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